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Is it True that Narcissists Don't Care?
Is it True that Narcissists Don't Care?
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Full Transcript of Show
The Love Safety Net
January 24, 2012
STEVE: Hi everyone. Welcome to The Love Safety Net.
KIM: I'm Kim.
STEVE: And I'm Steve. In today's show, Kim says she is going to pry into my emotional world a little, so I can tell everybody a bit about the emotional stuff that was going on for me back in the days when Kim and I were having some really big problems in our relationship.
KIM: Well, we get questions nearly every day, Steve, of people wanting you to share more about that, and you have managed to dodge them pretty well so far, but I think it's time you open up a little, eh?
STEVE: I am extremely reluctant; I appear here reluctantly, but we will do it because it is important stuff and we do need to share it, Kim.
KIM: You’ll be okay!
STEVE: Thank you.
KIM: But first off, we have a sale I would like to share with you. Here is our book that is in now print that we have been letting you know about in the last few shows. We have had some feedback and some really good input from professional people and from our audience and because of that, our cover has now changed, and here is what Back From the Looking Glass looks like now. Can you help me with that and see if we can position it so everyone can see it Steve?
STEVE: Okay. Yes it's a little bit glare-y.
KIM: Okay, so I think the new cover is a really good move and it was a good suggestion, because instead of having us on the cover (small laugh) it actually has information ... it says 13 Steps Toward a Peaceful Home, which is exactly what we are offering. I think it gives a good idea of what you are getting inside this book.
KIM: That has left us in a little bit of a situation though, where we have about 100 copies of this one with the old cover. They are brand new, but since the cover has changed we are offering them for only $14.99 delivered - to our Australian customers only…sorry everyone else. But if you live in Australia, this is a great chance for you to pick up a copy and particularly if you want more than one copy -- say maybe for family or friends -- they are only $14.99 delivered to anywhere in Australia. And so everybody else doesn't miss out, we are also running a sale on this—the same book but with the new cover—which is still Back From the Looking Glass. Both versions have been newly updated, new information, organized a little bit better. I have had a lot of help and we are really proud of what we have come up with. It is now our 9th edition, but the first edition in print and not an e-book. If you want one with a new cover, we have a special and that is 20% off. But that is only for the next few days, so you really need to get in and order them today. You can purchase this version too if you live in Australia but this special is also good anywhere in the world. The total will be include shipping, but you will get 20% off our usual retail price.
STEVE: So have a look at the buttons below, and press the right button.
KIM: (laughing) I will mark it really clearly for them, I promise, Steve.
STEVE: Thank you. So back to our show, Kim. I was saying before that I am reluctantly here to talk about a whole bunch of the emotional stuff that was going on for me as a man or as the guy who was the narcissist in the relationship, and you being the codependent. It isn't something I enjoy talking about. It is a long time ago for us, Kim.
STEVE: I mean, I suppose we should start by just saying that. It feels like an eternity ago in many ways that we were having so much trouble with our relationship, because now we are a team. We are a really good team. We work together. We are really good friends. We rely on each other. Things have come a really long way. This is no B.S., we are really good friends. But let me get back to what is a good starting point. Maybe when you first started looking for help when you could see things weren't going really good for us and maybe there were some cracks appearing around the edges in our relationship.
KIM: (laughing) "Cracks appearing around the edges"? It had been 10 years of sheer hell, come on!
KIM: Well, I talked to people for many years, but I think the beginning was when I discovered that how you were behaving was symptoms of a disorder, when I first started learning about Narcissistic Personality Disorder and that this was really the problem. I guess coming from a medical family growing up, I had always heard that an accurate diagnosis is 90% of the cure. So I had a lot of hope at that point. I thought, good, I am going to have a bit more understanding of this now. But I was really quite wrong. When I started talking to people and getting advice and going and seeing support agencies and whatnot and counselors and doctors, everything they said to me was really very negative—extremely negative—and I think to make it simple in my mind back then, I think the biggest question I first wanted to know is just how and why you could be doing the things that you were doing. I mean, I knew it had been bad, but I didn't even really know how bad it had been until I discovered more about what was going on. You read about that in Back From the Looking Glass how -- like I discovered this and what happened. I knew that you were putting me down and putting the kids down and you were extremely critical of us, and fairly aggressive at home, but I hadn't really realized that you were also doing that to other people. You were putting me down behind my back, and you were blaming me for a lot of stuff. And you had even made moves to find another place to live without telling me—sort of a spare time place to live—without telling me, so you could just kind of come and go whenever you wanted. And there was a lot of stuff that I discovered that was very upsetting, so I guess the question in my head was just how and why. And I think that's fairly normal, I have learned now. When people first discover their partner may has symptoms of narcissism or Narcissistic Personality Disorder, they really are wondering that. You know, how can they be doing this, and why are they doing this? And I think the answer that you are given, or that I was given most of the time by the professionals that I spoke to, was very unsatisfactory. They were just saying that you didn't care.
KIM: And that really didn’t help.
STEVE: So just let me jump in there. So when you are saying the people you were asking were very negative, were they negative about me, or were they negative about our relationship, or were they negative about you?
KIM: Well, they were negative about you They were saying I should just completely write you off. But they were also very negative toward me, particularly for me just having an interest in why you might be doing what you were or for thinking maybe I could help, or that maybe I could change things, or maybe by understanding I could fix things. People were very critical of that and—I found—bitter. They were very bitter and nasty, and talked very much like I was just kidding myself.
STEVE: So there was sort of an idea you were kidding yourself believing you could find some answers, right? Is that fair to say?
STEVE: Right. So that would have made you feel—well I know what you are like, Kim, because you don't like letting a mystery go unsolved. You like to try and find answers to things. (laughing).
KIM: (laughing) Yeah.
STEVE: But that must have been really disheartening and deflating.
KIM: Well, it was shocking. As I say, it was a really most unsatisfactory response I found, that everybody just kept saying you didn't care and that people with this disorder just didn't care, and it was some kind of complete major fault or flaw in you, and that I really just had to accept that. Really, that didn't help me at all.
So you're right. I am the detective and I don't like leaving stones unturned. So I journeyed into that, and I don't think I really realized what a dark place it was going to take me to, putting myself in your shoes back then. Because when I saw the things you were doing, and how long they had gone on, I was really shocked at how quickly and easily you had just kind of discarded all the trust and all the love between us. And how little our love seemed to mean to you when I knew that you did care. I knew you did care about the kids and I knew you did care about me. So as I kind of searched in my heart and in my mind, the only thinking I could really come up with is that a really long time ago you just completely had given up on love. And the hope of ever being able to trust somebody, or to have a fair and good, loving relationship. That was a really dark place to be. I couldn’t even really put myself there for very long.
STEVE: Yeah, yeah.
KIM: It was just in a recent interview I did with Margie Casados on Women of g+, that she was asking these questions. After answering them I thought it would be really good if maybe we could get you to talk a little bit more about those times as well.
KIM: Because that was how I saw it.
STEVE: Yeah. Well that dark time that you pointed out, it was interesting because, Kim, I hope I am not telling this story backward here, but you really did put yourself in my shoes and realized I was in a dark place but I think to be completely honest I didn't think I was in a dark place. I would just pretend that I wasn't in a dark place, where really I was. And I think the more we have learned about this and the more I have thought about my particular situation and the more I have heard from people writing to us on our site and in our blogs, etc, the more I know that how much darkness we carry with us for so long without realizing it.
STEVE: And that does come from somewhere else and it does get transferred later. And I think I look back for me in many ways to the times when I was growing up. I grew up in a time when my parents had a lot of infidelity going on, to be direct. Both my mother and father had their stories and there was firsthand experiences I had and I could see that there was no trust in my family whatsoever, and it's good you hit on that word, trust there, Kim. I grew up in a family where there was no trust whatsoever. A lot of the infidelity, which caused intrigue and caused distrust and hate. And my parents brought me up in that world. It was very painful and there were stepparents and the whole, complicated situation with that. Now I don't want to particularly single my parents out because we are talking about the 60s to 70s and early 80s and I think that was a very immoral time—an extremely immoral time—where a lot of things were being experimented with. You have talked about it before, Kim, with you being from California. You talk about the "hot tub" culture and the "swinging" culture and porn became such a massive thing in the 1970s. It sort of branched out into film and it became more popular. It became prestigious with the Playboy and Penthouse magazines. It became sort of like a high price consumer item. In terms of an immoral culture, it translated through into how people were behaving and we try not to be preachy….right? We do our best not to preach here, but that culture—the moral culture that western society is based on—is about nurturing children in a loving environment. For centuries we have known that is what kids need. For me, I didn't really get that. I didn't get that level of trust between my parents and even my siblings and my wider family. So that translates into all sorts of pain I carried through. You know, this all happened well before I met you.
STEVE: You know, a decade or more before I met you. So that is where we have identified that pain. For me, the guilt of what I did to you Kim is really the hardest bit to talk about.
KIM: Mmm. But I think you felt guilty even before that. And you were carrying a lot of emotional hurt. It's like you had sort of given up on the idea that you could ever have a happy ending, or that happily ever after wasn't going to be real or wasn't going to be possible for you, really before you had even started.
STEVE: Absolutely, Kim. No happily ever after. That was B.S. It was a fairly tale.
KIM: Yeah. And I worry now because I see children now becoming cynical, even younger and younger. And that really concerns me. I think it was really important where you said it was the style or it became prestigious—pornography and swinging and all those things in the 70s became prestigious.
STEVE: And popular.
KIM: And popular. And I don't know if those times were any more immoral than our times now. I think we still have those problems. And of course they were around before the 70s, but I think for me that really defined it. It was in the 70s where they made like it was fashionable and it was prestigious and it was actually something that rich, well-to-do, cool people did, when really it was just pretty grubby and really hurt a lot of people, and really hurt a lot of relationships, hurt a lot of kids and hurt a lot of families. People did come to recognize that. So that it all then sank into the background. It wasn't sort of promoted overtly as being really fashionable or stylish anymore, but the cat was out of the bag.
STEVE: Yeah, for sure.
KIM: It had been initiated. We had the swingers clubs and we had Playboy and Hustler magazine and it was not going to go away. It had been introduced and of course it only has gotten worse with people's ability to access that stuff privately online.
KIM: And I remember growing up in my family there wasn't the infidelities and stuff. My father was quite religious, but he even had like a Playboy calendar on the wall of his den, when he had two daughters and a wife. And I really found that extremely disturbing and it took me years to come to terms with that on an emotional level, because to me that just seemed such a incredible betrayal of my mother.
KIM: A disrespect toward my mother.
STEVE: Well, you as a child wouldn’t have been able to figure that out in your own head.
STEVE: That kind of concept of why he would have a picture of another woman naked on his wall.
KIM: Yeah, well , an image of a naked woman is so powerful. You know, it had something like a goddess about it. Normally we don't walk around without clothes on, so who is this person that is just so amazing and powerful and important she can stand there on my father's wall without her clothes on? You know? We went to church and he taught us about God, but it was like she was his God.
STEVE: Yeah, wow.
KIM: That's what it looked like. And it took me many years for me to realize how deeply disturbing that really was to me. But even 10 years later there is no way he would have done that, and I even think he probably would have even been ashamed that he had, but back then he had been carried away with the fashion.
STEVE: That's a good point. It had become so established in our western culture.
KIM: Yeah. Playboy was so mainstream in the 70s; it was so just what everybody was doing. I think a lot of people just really lost their way and lost their head about it.
STEVE: Sure. Sowed a lot of bad oats, I think. And let's not be too judgmental because I want to keep it on where it's going with this radio show, but we do have to be a little bit judgmental because as the children who grow up in that particular immoral phase of our western society, we are still carrying a lot of hurt from that. And I think we can't figure that out, you know? It's not something we had the emotional maturity, as you as a young girl in your dad's den, or me watching my parents play the field while they were supposed to be taking care of my sister and I, that whole world just cannot be understood by children.
STEVE: And we are still carrying it now. I should just jump in here, Kim, and explain to the audience if you are new to our work, that one of the concepts we have and we talk about regularly in our shows and in our books is the concept of a reparative relationship or in old-fashioned terms "a good example". So a reparative relationship is if you had a grandmother and grandfather who were respectful of each other and you grew up close to them and they loved you and there was reciprocal love and respect between you and other people in the family, and there wasn't a whole bunch of abuse going on, you are more than likely to fall into or to seek out a relationship that is based on the similar values of respect with one another. And the same is true if you have also grown up in an abusive home. If you have an example of parents who are abusive toward each other, it is more than likely you are going to learn that. That is all pretty basic research that is going on now. But Kim and I have taken it to a new level with our work where we are trying to be a good example—not just for our kids—I mean, we are absolutely doing it for our kids but we have taken it to the point where we have e-books and print books where people can learn from some of the mistakes we made as well.
KIM: Because if you didn't grow up with those role models—with your grandparents or your parents—where are you going to learn it from, where are you going to put it back together? You know just getting back to that emotional stability, and that lack of emotional security. That confusion, if you are seeing the sexual relationships between the people in your life that are older than you --when you are young-- being filled with betrayal, being filled with hurt, being filled with insecurity and a lack of security—where are you going to find that security from?
KIM: And I think that was sort of the situation I realized we had found ourselves in. We didn't have those role models. And the chances and odds for us having a successful relationship or marriage were very slim. And the only option being offered to us was that I was to completely write you off and say, "Oh, he just doesn't care and I should just chuck him on the scrap heap”, because that is what everybody was telling me I had to do. And I was very upset and very hurt and angry at a lot of the stuff you were doing then. But I just wasn't ready to ‘chuck you on the scrap heap’, because I really knew you were damaged. And I knew I wasn't perfect. I knew I was damaged too. I didn't even know back then how. So that was when I just started on the research and said, okay well let's find good role models then. Let's look for good role models. Let's piece it all together. What does a healthy relationship look like?
STEVE: And a healthy relationship is based on trust. And that is where we left off our story. I had no trust of women in particular, of you, or of any woman being somebody I could trust for the future—for the happily ever after which I didn't believe in anyway. So that issue of trust is the huge thing. I wasn't really aware of it. It really took your work and your research, Kim, and your decision to decide that I was worth it, which I thank you for every day.
But Kim, if you had decided to chuck me on the scrap heap, it would have been a self-fulfilling prophesy, because I would have hated you, I would have been bitter, I would have done anything to ruin your life. So fortunately, you chose the other choice, and that was to try and understand it. Understanding is one of the great virtues we have as human beings. Understanding is a really, really powerful tool if you can grasp it. And I think, Kim, your level of understanding, or at least your inquisitiveness and your curiosity to know why I was so damaged really helped uncover that I really had no trust of anybody. I didn't trust women. And I think that was one of the keys you really found in the end was I didn't trust women full stop. And that wasn't personal against you necessarily, but it had to do with issues that I had growing up and other family members in particular. Or it was at least based from there.
KIM: And as I mentioned in the interview with Margie, that was a really dark place when I took those steps in your shoes. I don't think I realized how dark a place it was going to take me to. I couldn't actually stay there for very long. I went oh-oh, okay, I am really going to need some help here. I guess that is why the first chapter of Back From the Looking Glass is called "Going Where His Angels Fear to Tread", because I really did embark on something I knew wasn't going to be easy and I knew it wasn't going to be solved from me just telling you you could trust me.
KIM: When I wasn't behaving in a way that was trustworthy. I might have not have been lying to you and I might have been faithful to you and all of that, but there were other ways I was letting myself down, there were other ways I wasn't being responsible to myself, and so why should you trust me?
STEVE: Yeah, that's right. We will let you buy the book to hear more of the details about that, but that was really, really a big question, Kim. Because there had to be that point where the trust had to get built again from scratch.
STEVE: And even though Kim and I had had about 10 years of history—10 years of unhappy memories mostly.
KIM: Fighting, and fighting, and fighting.
STEVE: Fighting and arguing and being completely at loggerheads. But we still took that baggage of all those unhappy memories of 10 years into a place where we could start building some trust. I mean, you were really the instigator of it. I was extremely reluctant to want to trust you. I just wanted to sit in that comfortable seat of hate and obstinate.
KIM: Yeah, so tell us a little about the anger. Because I know there was a lot of anger in that space, that you were feeling back then. Because to feel that the world is unfair and you have given up on love before you have even really started, to me I guess that's why it was uncomfortable for me to stay in that place. I realized to me it just felt like you must be so angry, even angry at God.
STEVE: Certainly angry at women. Angry at the whole world. Angry at God. Angry at anything. I was angry at everything. And not to deviate too much from this conversation, but I think a lot of addictions are formed from that place of hating. And I was a tobacco junkie, porn junkie, marijuana junkie, alcohol junkie, sugar junkie—you know anything. I would just become a junkie. I didn't put a needle in my arm because I'm smart, but that seed of hate really leads you down a destructive path in so many ways. I really did hate the world. You are right. Thinking back to where I was at, I was really hating the kids as well. I really resented the kids and it was really just the fact that I had put myself there in many ways. Based from the difficult childhood, the difficult emotional turmoil of what I just explained previously. But I was just making the decision to hate. And it meant that you suffered.
KIM: And it was self-perpetuating, really, because that hatred then got justified. I mean, if you felt life had been so unfair to you, it justified you being unfair to other people. And then when you are unfair to other people, of course they are not trustworthy and they will let you down.
STEVE: And it keeps going.
KIM: So it goes into a downward spiral, doesn't it.
STEVE: Right. Absolutely. That's how it was for me. And I have to say sorry.
KIM: (laughing) Hey, it's okay. I wasn't behaving at my best then either. But that brings something up for me, I just remembered before how at that time I was really looking for you to save me. I wanted you to make me feel emotionally secure. And I was really disappointed and I felt betrayed and so angry at you that you wouldn't just be my Prince Charming and come and make me feel emotionally secure and make our happily ever after happen. And I think that was a big shift when I realized how emotionally insecure you were—not only insecure but just completely desolate. That you had actually given up completely on the hope of ever having the happily ever after, or of ever being able to trust anyone you were in a love relationship with. That was really the point where I went, "hang on, I am going to have to be the hero here".
STEVE: Sure. And I'm sure you weren't really happy about that
KIM: (laughing) Oh, not at all. It wasn't like oh wow, I want to be the hero. That was really, really disappointing for me, because I had really wanted you to be the hero, or some other hero to come galloping into my life. And it was a really big wake up call when suddenly I realized hang on, no, he is in such a dark place that I am really going to have to get my act together 100% completely and I am going to need to pull in as much support as I can possibly get, and I can't be making any more excuses for anything anymore.
KIM: Because this is really serious. This is as serious as someone drowning at the beach. But it wasn't just you out there drowning, it was you and you were taking all of us with you.
STEVE: Yeah, absolutely. And you know the whole emotional turmoil goes to what you were just saying about confidence. I didn't see at the time and I'm sure you didn't see both of our confidence had been terribly shattered by the fact we weren't connecting on an emotional level.
STEVE: When you even decided it was time to take the lead, like you were just explaining, you didn't really have the confidence but you felt like you had no other option.
KIM: No, none. None.
STEVE: But I think for me and a lot of other guys out there, Kim. I hope you guys will connect with this in some way: Finding that confidence is really not easy. If you don't work on your emotional intelligence or you haven't got somebody around you working on their emotional intelligence with you, you will find that finding that confidence is something that will always allude you. And Kim, just the confidence to say I was wrong, I feel guilty, I feel ashamed. I feel like maybe I'm making some wrong decisions. Just the confidence to be humble wasn't even there for me. And I think getting back to the topic we usually talk about—narcissism—you have to be confident in yourself and you have to know yourself to be humble. The whole problem going on with me is I didn't trust anyone, hated everybody, I was fearful of women, I didn't trust women. That whole problem meant I didn't have the confidence to build anything different than that. And I know for a fact a lot of guys are in that particular same situation and probably a lot of girls are too. And if you are still watching this show guys, and you are still listening to what I've got to say, really trust me to find that confidence isn't easy, but it's what you have to do. And the whole looking at the issue of trust, what we were talking about before, is really one of the first important steps
KIM: Well, I don't think you had any expectation, or any reason to have any expectation, that anybody was going to play fair with you if you did come out and do the right thing. And that was really the heart of the problem. Even if you came out and admitted to me that you were scared, admitted to me you didn't know how to rescue me, admitted to me that you didn't know how to make me feel secure because you didn't feel secure yourself. If you had come out and admitted you were embarrassed and ashamed of stuff you had done and there was stuff I didn't know about. Nothing that had happened previously in your life could have led you to have any idea that that could go okay or that could be all right. I mean, maybe that's a subject for another show we will do soon.
Because I know we had someone write in and want us to answer some questions about dealing with their teenage son and being able to tell the difference between what is normal, healthy, teenage narcissism and what stuff you need to look out for. And maybe that's something we could get into a little bit more in that show. But it's about modeling how to deal with shame and how to admit that you feel embarrassed or ashamed. In reality, when you actually come out and do that, if you have genuine contrition—if you genuinely feel bad about what you have done and you genuinely want to make amends—most people will try and be understanding and try and forgive you. But if a child has never been modeled that—if they have never been helped with that, if they have never had any experience of that. If they have never had a parent to help them through that process, it's an incredibly difficult thing to do all on your own.
STEVE: Yeah, absolutely.
KIM: And I agree with you. It's something that takes an enormous amount of confidence and courage that a lot of people just don't have. And to demand your partner do that, particularly if you are angry with them and you are saying “You should admit you are wrong, and you should admit all the bad things you have done”, it's never going to happen. They already don't know how to do that.
KIM: Let alone when somebody is mad at them!
STEVE: And we would love to give you some suggestions about people who are able to model the ability to deal with shame and guilt. Unfortunately, it's not just parents who sometimes don’t give a good example, but our whole system particularly with schooling, where the teachers are in a class of their own, in terms of the fact that they are staff, they are faculty and they are in charge. And in that power hierarchy, very rarely do you get a teacher who offers themselves as a role model to a child growing up, saying, "Hey, I was wrong". I mean, the whole role of a teacher is to say I am teaching you the right thing.
STEVE: I am not singling out teachers, because I think teachers do a wonderful job and they really do have a tough job. But just the system that they are set up in makes it very difficult for things to move forward and for children to learn that.
KIM: And if they can't admit they are wrong, how much harder is it to admit they are embarrassed or admit they are scared, or admit they are feeling ashamed. As you say, not just teachers—our politicians and our leaders—how hopeless are they at this?
STEVE: How often do you see a politician be contrite?
KIM: Or say this is a situation where we need to use caution, because this is scary what's going on here. Which is often the reality of the case.
KIM: And we are led to believe this is bad leadership and people won't trust in us, or they won't believe us if we are honest about our fear and our embarrassment or any of our more negative emotions, but really this isn't the case. If somebody does know how to express those things—and when it is the appropriate time -- I mean it is not everybody that you want to be admitting these things to and of course and there is the appropriate time and place for it. But knowing how to do that really is a vital leadership skill and is actually going to make people respect you better and trust you better and feel more secure with you around. They are going to feel more secure with you as the leader. And being a parent or being in a relationship, we need to be leaders. We can't always be dependent on our spouse to take the lead.
STEVE: Yeah, that's right.
KIM: Particularly if they are behaving badly. If they are in a bad way and the things they are doing are going to take your life to a bad place, maybe it's time you are the one that takes charge.
STEVE: Sure. And you know taking the lead is often not as difficult as you think, Kim, you just have to give it a try. I know when I was giving up alcohol for the first time --I am an amateur footballer still as some of you know-- I thought my peers from the football club would instantly start needling me and giving me a hard time about not drinking, but you know what, Kim? None of them said a word for an entire season. Not one of them said a single word that I wasn't drinking after the game. It just never came up. It was just one of those things where I was really surprised. I thought someone would say, "Hey, how come you're not having a beer?" but it just didn't happen. In many ways, me doing that led to a whole bunch of other guys saying, "Oh, I might try giving up the alcohol for a few months too, Steve." And actually by not worrying about it (even though I was worrying about it) but by not trying to be a leader I ended up being a leader anyway. But I had to find the confidence to be a nondrinker and be a football guy. And that's a bit hard here in Australia, where we are from, and a lot of you know all about that. And it was actually my parents who gave me a hard time for not drinking. My parents said, "What's wrong with you, why are you not drinking? Please have a glass of wine with me." (laughing)
STEVE: And you know these leadership roles get thrust upon you and confidence is so much a part of it.
KIM: Well, thank you for being so honest with us, Steve, and opening up. I hope we can do more of it.
STEVE: Yeah, well, it wasn't really that comfortable.
KIM: It's not always so easy for me drawing you out, but I hope I have help bring a little bit of information out that is of interest and of use to people. Because I know for me it really is good hearing you talk about it.
STEVE: Thanks. And thanks for being so kind about it.
KIM: Thank you. Okay. So you wrap up the show, not me ...
STEVE: Thanks everyone for tuning in. Thanks for all the great questions you have been sending in. Keep them coming. We really appreciate it. Don’t forget the book sale. There is a really good bargain on both of these. Click the buttons below. All the info will pop up on screen. Have a great day.
KIM: And for how inexpensive we really work at keeping these books, there is so much information in here that if you are struggling in a difficult relationship or if you are having problems or you are fighting, for goodness sake! Just do it. It's not like a lot of money and it really is going to help you.
STEVE: It really will. And there are lots of testimonials to back that up. Grab yourself a copy. Do yourself a favor. Thanks everyone!