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"Why You Can't Trust Your Relationship Instincts"
KIM: Hi, I'm Kim.
STEVE: And hi, I'm Steve. And welcome to The Love Safety Net.
KIM: On today's show, we want to show you a clear path forward in improving your relationships.
STEVE: Even with the principles we have to offer, it's not always going to be easy. That's why today's show is entitled, "Why You Can't Trust Your Instincts".
KIM: Because if you didn't grow up in a family with healthy role models, chances are you are going to find your instincts and your habits have been impaired and won't necessarily lead you to the healthy behaviors you need to develop good relationships.
STEVE: And, Kim, today's radio show is free!
STEVE: The first free show we have done for a while.
KIM: Yes! That's right. A bit of a Christmas present.
STEVE: Fabulous. So let's get started. Hey, look, when you are talking about instincts, there is a really good example I want to use here about getting into shape. Kim and I have gotten terribly out of shape this year—well, not so bad.
KIM: Oh, we have.
STEVE: We have. Because we have been working really hard. We have been working indoors. We have had pressure on and all sorts of things, and we have gotten out of shape. But now we have gotten back into the gym, we are dieting again, we are really back onto it.
KIM: Doing P.A.C.E..
STEVE: Doing the P.A.C.E. Program. So our instincts at the moment are still kind of we still want to eat pizza and eat chocolate cake, right?
KIM: (laughing) Yeah, that's right. I think that's a really great example of what we are talking about here. We know that you can't use your instincts to guide you to getting a better body if you want to get in shape. You know, your instincts are always going to lead you the wrong way. They are going to tell you there is absolutely nothing wrong with eating that piece of chocolate cake, that it's just an absolutely great idea. But, you know, luckily we have fitness coaches and we have science and research to know the chocolate cake is actually what's going to put pounds on our waistline. We can hold to those principles even when we are tempted and say, "I want to get in shape, so I am not going to go there."
STEVE: So really, it's counterintuitive about what our instincts are telling us. Our instincts are saying, "Hey, there is lots of energy in that cake."
KIM: Mmm, yeah.
STEVE: And we need energy to survive and we need energy to feel like we can get through the day.
KIM: Yep. And my instincts certainly don't tell me I should be doing interval training, you know?
STEVE: Yeah, sure.
KIM: That's something I still have to really push myself to do. But am really happy I understand those principles, because I know now that we will get in shape. It is going to be hard work, but it will only take a month or so. It's Christmas time here in Australia, but that is summer for us. So we are a little bit slow. We probably should have started on this a little earlier. But hey, we have been working too hard.
STEVE: Our instincts have been guiding us toward chocolate cake too much. But anyway, we are getting away from that.
KIM: Well, just sitting on our bums for too long in front of the computer, I think.
STEVE: Yeah, it hasn't been easy for us, has it.
KIM: Yeah, financial pressures, the realities of work, supporting kids.
STEVE: That's right, that's right. And cooking for all those kids too. Wow, we are always cooking. There is always food around us! When you are cooking for a big family, there is always food in front of you.
STEVE: So that example is from a very similar perspective, okay? We instinctively want to eat the wrong things because it looks nice and we know it tastes nice. So from a relationship point of view, Kim, how does that translate? How can we use that kind of example as a bit of a metaphor for how we relate to each other emotionally and verbally and the whole gamut of what a relationship means.
KIM: Yeah, well, I think it's a really, really good metaphor. Because if people are experiencing relationship problems—maybe they have had multiple love relationships in their life, or maybe their relationship with their parents is strained, or maybe their friendships don't last as long as they would like them to, there is a tendency with people to say, "Oh, it was the other person's fault. You just had a bad spin on the chocolate wheel or bad roll of the dice."
STEVE: Mmm. Or fell in with the wrong crowds.
KIM: Yeah. "And next time, it will go better." They are always looking for the next relationship that is going to be better and that is going to help heal all of that. I think there is a lot of danger in that. If you have grown up not understanding the principles of healthy relationships, your instincts are really always going to lead you the wrong way—just like in the case of diet and exercise is not instinctively what a lot of us feel like doing. If we didn't grow up in a family with good habits around that—if we grew up in families that had good habits such as a healthy diet and exercise and that was what was normal—then maybe we will grow up with the right instincts.
KIM: It's just a similar situation. I think a really good example of this is from one of our You Tube movies, which I won't tell you all about it as you can go and watch it if you like. It's titled, "Stop Dealing with Narcissism Like This"
In that, I give three distinct behaviors that it is really important that people learn to stop doing if their partner is pulling away from them, if their partner is being cold and arrogant toward them. I only mention this because out of all the movies we have made, that one probably get the most negative feedback. (laughing)
There is just a lot of people that come on saying this is so sad because these things are just healthy and normal.
STEVE: You've copped a lot of flack for that, haven't you, Kim.
KIM: I have. (laughing) So if you want to see some of our harshest critics, you will find them on that movie.
But I am bringing that up and I want to discuss it with you Steve, because I think it just really shows how clearly that society really doesn't understand the principles of healthy relationships, and how far off track we have gotten, that by me saying, hey, these things are unhealthy and these are things you should really stop doing, it really upsets people because people's instincts tell them that these are the right things for them to do. So I understand they get upset at the movie.
STEVE: Sure. So let's just give one example.
STEVE: One suggestion you recommend people stop doing in the movie, Kim, is to encourage your partner to talk about their feelings or try and evoke an emotional conversation.
STEVE: So that has got a lot of negative feedback.
KIM: From a few people; a lot of people liked the movie too (laughing).
STEVE: Sure, sorry. I should qualify. But that has caused a bit of a stir with people who do feel that instinctively that's the right thing to do. Is that a fair thing to say?
KIM: Yeah! Absolutely. And I think what might help here is just really sharing a little bit about what the heart of codependence is about. You know, we talk about narcissism a lot, but I think that both narcissism and codependence at their heart are immaturity. And particularly codependence is about emotional immaturity. So even deeper than wanting their partner to share their feelings, I think the codependent usually wants their pattern to share their feelings so then it will be their turn next and they can talk about their feelings—their sadness, their negativity, their wounds they are still nursing, and their partner will care for that and their partner will help heal that for them.
KIM: And this is a really big desire inside the codependent. And we hear this in a lot of popular music. It's a common theme in probably 80% of the songs we hear on the radio.
STEVE: Yeah, for sure.
KIM: You know, we talk about "my baby" when we want to talk about our lover. There is this sort of unhealthy idea (it really is) that love is actually about having somebody come along and soothe or nurture or take care of our negative emotions.
KIM: And I would suggest that those emotions and that part of us is usually quite immature. It's like we want somebody to baby us. We want someone to treat us like a baby.
STEVE: You know, there is some kind of wound there that somebody feeling those feelings is not quite sure how to move past it and hasn't matured past that terrible—be it trauma related or it might not be. But there has been a slowing down of development in some way.
KIM: Or it may be them just avoiding growing up, because growing up is painful.
STEVE: It sure is.
KIM: So people understandably get quite upset when I suggest that this isn't what love is, and that that it is really a very immature form of love. I mean, you see it really clearly in people in relationships, where they are intimate with each other and the baby talk starts.
KIM: They have sort of goo-goo, gaga names for each other.
STEVE: Yeah, cute and fuzzy names, like honey-bunny and stuff.
KIM: Yeah and the intimacy level between them really goes down to this level of maybe even being under 5 years old.
KIM: (laughing) That's the level they are relating at, in terms of intimacy. And I only mention this because I am hinting that there really is more than this. There is something a lot better. As hard as it can be to get past those ideas of wanting that kind of babying or feeling that you really need that, if you think about it logically for a minute, is that the depth that you really want your intimate relationships to stay at?
KIM: You know, yes, it's difficult accepting the truth for a lot of people that a lot of the principles in our program offer—that you really do need to become emotionally a lot more independent and a lot less dependent than you probably are at the moment. And I know that's really scary. That's tough. It's like working out at the gym. It is going to take some principled effort for you to grow -- but you are only going to be able to do that if you can let go of the idea of wanting to be taken care of like you are a baby.
KIM: But, you know, there is a lot more to look forward to. A true adult level of intimacy and intimate exchange offers so much more dynamics, possibility and potential.
STEVE: That's right, Kim and we have been together nearly 20 years now, so it's fair to say our honeymoon period is over. (laughing)
STEVE: Do you think?
KIM: Yeah, I think so. It ended pretty quick!
STEVE: It did, rather. But the thing about that initial honeymoon period you do get all those feelings that you really can't grapple immediately. You don't want to jump into that analytic kind of mode in that honeymoon period. You are enjoying the great feelings it is bringing back, the love and the connection, and there is something magical about that. But when you do move past that honeymoon period, that is a really important part of everybody's growth. Everybody that has been in a relationship—men, women, anyone that has been in any kind of relationship. So when that honeymoon period starts to falter, it is a danger time of course, but it is also at that moment, Kim, when that question mark we are raising about instincts and about principles really becomes clearer in the picture. If you can take a moment and think, "Wow, I am really going to need to start thinking about how I soothe myself", and I know we have some ideas on that and we wont talk about that straight away Kim, but those ideas of how we are going to start taking care of our own emotions is about learning to catch them right in the moment.
Now of course there are various different times, it is not just as the honeymoon period is finishing, Kim. As I said, we have been together nearly 20 years now.
STEVE: But we are still working on those roles of being able to depend on each other when we need each other, and that's not always easy but that is becoming adult. That is requiring principles when all sorts of emotional stuff comes up, but we are committed to each other in that sense.
STEVE: We are committed to being able to depend on each other, because we need to.
STEVE: And instincts, like we have talked about in previous shows, where I just wanted everybody to love me and that was the whole narcissistic problem or wound I was carrying. I just wanted to impress everybody.
KIM: You were pretty good at it.
STEVE: Yeah, well…thanks for that. (laughing)
STEVE: I just wanted to bring up that there are different stages and different challenges come up in those different changes.
KIM: Yep. And we put the principles together that we did in our workbook and in our books, our material and radio shows—I put that set of principles together for myself, and for you, and now we are sharing them with our children because my instincts had been impaired. I realized that doing the same things over and over again that felt normal and natural to me was actually damaging my relationships. It was damaging my reputation and pushing people away from me, and I didn't want that to continue.
I don't think there is a day that goes by nearly, or certainly not two days that goes by, that situations don't come up in our life where I have to call on those principles—especially now that we have teenagers and they are starting to have boyfriends and girlfriends and our family is growing. It is really important, and I can't honestly say that my instincts are all completely healthy now. Maybe that will never happen, but I am so grateful that I do have principles to turn to, and even when sometimes I am feeling like doing this, I know that isn't the right thing for me to do and I really should be doing this.
And this is sometimes tough. You know, just like the gym. This is sometimes the really tough decision, not necessarily the easy decision. That is where I really do want to promote our books and the principles we offer, because I feel kind of a little bit uncomfortable, I guess, when people come onto the blog and they read this and they say, "Oh, I have tried all of that and it doesn't work." Or, "Oh I understand it all now, and I know everything will be better because I can see what I have been doing wrong." In both cases, I kind of go – “ugh”. I hope I have put this across truthfully for how it really is, because really to make our program effective you do need to see it as principles that you are going to have to keep using over and over, but that you can learn to turn to help guide you through. Just like the same principles we started out saying, that to help you get in shape or help you not get too out of shape.
KIM: So at least if you are doing the wrong thing, you know you are doing the wrong thing and you have some guidance.
STEVE: Mmm. So Kim, on the topic of emotional immaturity, we have kind of touched on that on the show already. But that emotional immaturity is not always easy to see in yourself, is it?
KIM: No...No, it certainly isn't! (laughing)
STEVE: (laughing) It's always easier to see when somebody else is being emotionally immature, not so easy to see when you are perhaps acting that way. So I think that's also something that people are using as an excuse sometimes, you know? "Oh, I wasn't thinking, I'm sorry." "I didn't mean to call that person a name, I just wasn't thinking straight", when really getting back to the subject at hand, Kim, it's that lack of principles that have maybe allowed that emotional immaturity to sneak up and in the heat of the moment call somebody that name or perhaps make a wrong choice.
STEVE: Overreact, yeah, which can be terrible and have terrible consequences.
STEVE: So emotional immaturity is really something we need to be able to perhaps balance out with our principles.
STEVE: And in the example of when we do call somebody that name or we react badly, that is an example of what is instinctively what you wanted to say.
KIM: Yeah, yeah, that's right.
STEVE: You wanted to call that person a name.
KIM: That's right.
STEVE: In the heat of the moment, your instincts say--
KIM: And you don't have to give yourself a hard time or criticize yourself that because it's normal to get angry if we feel disrespected. But we have to then have a set of principles of how are we going to act that out, or when is it appropriate to act that out, or what is going to be effective at setting boundaries with that person so they don't disrespect us in the future. And, you know, we are all going to make mistakes. We are all still going to act out when we are emotional. When we are emotional, we are going to say and do the wrong things sometimes. We are not going to remember to take time out to calm down before we can think things through better. But really the principles we offer also help with damage control.
KIM: So that you do know how to repair that as quickly as possible if it does happen. But sometimes that isn't always what needs to happen, is it? You know, sometimes one of the biggest points of healing for somebody who is codependent is actually learning that they need to deal with people being angry with them sometimes. I know that has certainly been the hardest lesson for me. That is just a natural part of boundary setting, isn't it?
STEVE: Sure. Let's talk about that as an example.
STEVE: So, if somebody who has acted in a codependent way their whole life, has been the codependent "role player" in a certain relationship, how would they normally deal with somebody being angry at them, Kim? What is the likely scenario?
KIM: Oh, they would be really anxious and distressed by it. They would feel that maintaining and keeping the status quo is really important, no matter how unjust they may feel that situation, inside they would still really feel a lot of shame and a lot of guilt that somebody was upset with them and somebody was unhappy with them. They would really find it quite difficult to continue functioning.
KIM: It would really unbalance them.
STEVE: So what is the likely steps they are going to take in that scene. Are they going to feel like they have to take the hit on this one or like they are going to try and maintain the status quo by reinforcing that scenario where people are getting angry at them. Is that right?
KIM: OK, say you try and set a boundary. Let's use an example. Say you have a child who has specific dietary needs and it's a holiday season function and your parents or one of your in-laws insists on giving your child the wrong food, and blames you for being too controlling or a hypochondriac or, you know, basically they cross your boundaries in some way. This causes some kind of argument or confrontation. You go away from that with your feelings very hurt because you've had a boundary crossed. You tried to set a boundary, you should be the one with authority over your children and their diet, you really haven't done the wrong thing, but somebody who is codependent in this situation will be easily led into feeling they have done the wrong thing and feeling like they actually need to have it out with that person because they need to resolve it. It needs to be resolved and we need to get everything back to being happy, because everybody needs to be happy.
This is the codependent's real inner driver, that everybody should be happy with me and what I am doing. The reality, I think, is really quite different. The reality is that not everybody is going to be happy with your choices you make for yourself or your children, and that is just the truth.
KIM: And a much more healthy response is to actually realize that. If somebody is crossing your boundaries and you try and reinforce those boundaries with them, you will sometimes make them even more upset with you.
KIM: And sometimes that is just how it is going to be.
KIM: You know, sometimes you actually have to just be able to get on with your life and not let that unbalance you, not let that distract you from your own goals, and that actually confronting that person about the situation, if your intention is to resolve it, is actually going to be counterproductive because that is only really inevitably going to lead to an argument.
STEVE: Sure. So in families we always have these disagreements and problems like this pop up all the time, so it just goes to reinforce when you are setting boundaries for yourself, or for your children, or whatever you are doing, you are setting a boundary that you are setting them with principles. You are not relying on your instincts to set boundaries, because it's almost an oxymoron.
STEVE: It doesn't have anything reinforcing behind it, the boundary, if you are using your instincts.
KIM: Or your emotions.
STEVE: Or your emotions.
KIM: Yeah, that you are not using your emotions to set boundaries. You know, staying angry at somebody isn't effective at setting a boundary. It is actually going to usually make it easier for them to continue crossing that boundary.
STEVE: Well, that's right. When they are not backed up by principles, it just opens up so many more opportunity for arguments, right, Kim?
KIM: That's right.
STEVE: And you are not looking for that. You don't need to those arguments with family, extended family or your partner, dragging on in that way. If you are basing them on principles, you know where each other is at a bit more.
I just wanted to clarify something here too, Kim. When we talk about instincts and we are saying you don't rely on your instincts, of course, if you get a bad feeling about something or somebody—that always happens, doesn't it? You get a bad feeling about somebody—that you can sort of put that into the category of that was an instint dislike I had for that person. And that's fine, but underneath that lies the principles. If you don't get a good feeling about somebody, you might be sensing that this person was a little bit too emotional or was a little bit too forward, or was a little bit disrespectful. Those instincts you have about people, there is underneath that some principle you have set down for yourself, that you want to surround yourself with people who are emotionally stable. You want to surround yourself with people who are respectful and understand basic manners.
KIM: Yeah, and you still do need to listen to those instincts, certainly. But maybe just learn different ways of acting on them.
KIM: That you are not acting on them in reactionary ways. Getting back to the example of the child with the special dietary needs, in that situation, where say you have an in-law or parents who are ignoring your authority on that, becoming angry about that or feeling that you need to confront that parent or in-law about that situation because you need to have it resolved might seem kind of noble, but when you are thinking more clearly and are not so emotional you really need to stop and think. How likely is it that this is going to be resolved? How likely is it that they are going to actually respect you on that one? Because often the case is that this isn't very likely. You really have to stop and think about it. You have to say, "Is me getting all emotional, upset and confrontational about this going to make that boundary any firmer?" Because it usually is actually going to make it easier for them to cross that boundary because they are going to be able to point at you and say, "Look how emotional and hysterical this person is about this. Look at how unbalanced they are." And it's really going to give them excuses to actually point the finger at you and your behavior as you being the problem.
STEVE: That's so important, Kim, so important to watch out for that one.
KIM: Yeah, where if you are able to just handle it, just going, "Oh well, okay. You don't like the rules I have for my kids, well that's a shame and I'm sorry about that, but they are the rules. If you are not going to respect them, we just won't be visiting" or whatever—or we are going to have some fairly strict boundaries and restrict ideas around where and when we are going to visit you. And if they get their noses out of joint about that or they are angry, just let them be. In terms of relationship fitness training, that has probably been definitely the hardest one for me. It applies with your children as well—all the time.
If I can talk about that for a minute, Steve?
KIM: About rules. I think in this day and age there are many parents who are really very frightened of having rules for their kids. We have this culture now that, you know, children should be allowed to explore every little thing that they want to do, and that there is something sort of right and good about that. Well, you know, I don't think that we are as strict as a lot of families, but to me the sign of how good a parent you are is really about how wise and just the rules you choose are, and for what reason those rules are there. It's very important that children have rules whether they like it or not. And if people come along and call you controlling or want to come between your authority with your children, I think that really is a point where a decision needs to made of what is more important—my children or my relationship with my parents or my in-laws. Because just because somebody is older than you doesn't necessarily mean they have matured. (laughing)
STEVE: (laughing) That's right.
KIM: And what they are suggesting and what they may be wanting to allow may not be what is healthy. In the long run, as difficult as that can be, really standing firm to your principles and not allowing people to let you become overemotional or unbalanced about that, even if they are upset with you that you can still stay balanced and grounded and get on with your life. In the long run, they really are going to respect you more for that, you know?
STEVE: 100%, Kim. Absolutely.
KIM: And it may be the conflict goes on for a long time. It may take a year for them to come around, or longer.
KIM: But if they can't come around to the fact that you are the one with authority over your kids—I mean this is just an example. I know we don't all have kids—but if a person can't come around to the idea that you have the right to set boundaries for yourself about how you expect to be treated and how you wish to live, well, that really isn't a relationship you should be putting too much work into maintaining anyhow.
STEVE: Absolutely. Absolutely. And, Kim, you mentioned that not everyone is in a family—and that similar kinds of things are involved when you are setting boundaries for yourself as when you set boundaries for your kids, you are really making a statement for yourself and you are using your imagination as much as anything. It's a very creative process, Kim, setting boundaries. You are using your imagination, you are using your ethics, you are drawing on a lot of really fantastic philosophical/spiritual stuff you really need to dive deeply into and say, "OK, this is where the boundary is".
STEVE: And even if you are not setting boundaries with kids, you can use this with your partner, extended family, neighbors, colleagues—any kind of social group you are involved in. If you are able to use those kind of principles and set those boundaries, it is a personally-defining activity for you to undertake as soon as possible. If you are feeling like you have troubles with this—and maybe some of our listeners won't—they might be feeling we are talking about stuff they did years ago. (laughing)
KIM: I remember a class we were working with at one stage, Steve and one of the women in it was a nurse. She felt like she had fairly good skills at setting boundaries. When I asked everyone how do you go about setting boundaries if somebody is putting you down or being rude or abusive, she said, "Oh, I'm fine with that. I know how to do that completely." I thought, "OK, this will be interesting." I didn't doubt her, but it certainly didn't come easily to me. But I remember her response, as she said, "Oh, I say to them 'I am not going to stand here listening to you abusing me'; and I just walk away." And I thought okay. As we worked through the class with her, her ideas on this changed but I remember thinking, hmm, I wonder how effective that is her saying that? I wonder how you end up feeling about yourself and how the other person ends up feeling about themselves. Because if your boundary setting is always reactive and in the moment, it is going to lead to some very uncomfortable and confrontational situations like that. I just think that it's really important style wise that people understand that is really not what we are suggesting.
As you were saying, Steve, it is a creative process. It's a process you want to become mature at just like you want your relationships to deepen into something more mature than baby talk and having somebody fulfill some infantile expectations that you may have. Boundary setting can become something that helps build your self-respect so that in that moment when you want to say, "Hey, I'm not going to sit around and listen to you abusing me", which if you think about it is very accusational and very confrontational and creating a confrontation that will probably never be resolved with that person. But you are able to sort of bite your lip in the moment and maybe find a polite excuse to end that conversation, but still end it with some kind of authority that isn't pointing the finger at or blaming that person, but that you are just saying, "I don't see this conversation going anywhere constructive and I really need to get back to my chores". Then later spending some time thinking about that situation with that person and how you can avoid those problems in the future in a way that keeps your own self-respect a little better in tact. So we work a lot on people having scripts and come back lines and ways to deal with other people's disrespect without losing their own self-respect.
STEVE: That's right, Kim. So using these principles, we are learning to set better boundaries, to perhaps present those types of conflicts from happening in the first place.
STEVE: If you are feeling like somebody is disrespecting you and being confrontational in that example you just gave, well there is obviously a boundary being crossed and that boundary needs working on too.
KIM: And it has probably happened before.
STEVE: That's true, there will be a pattern.
KIM: There will be a pattern. So you actually do have time to prepare.
STEVE: So if you do want to improve your relationships, Kim, you do need strong principles.
KIM: Yeah, and not to be trusting your instincts in the heat of the moment. This is something that is going to take work and it's going to take practice, and there is going to be temptation. There is going to be temptation that when somebody is upset with you because you have tried to set a boundary that you want to get on Facebook, you want to get on the phone like it's a big emergency, it's a fire that needs putting out, and just go --ahhhh, how can I live with it that he is so upset with me? And you are going to have those temptations. That is where we really hope you will check out our material and learn some of the principles so they can become a really solid mast that you can turn to just like they have become for us. That even when you are swayed by your emotions and you want to do the wrong thing, that you actually know what the right thing is to do. And that really takes a lot of faith and a lot of trust sometimes.
KIM: I tell you, still it's really tough for me. I have to hold on. You know, my mum was really upset with me recently for quite a few days and I had to hang on. I had to really hold on because I don't enjoy that, but I still stayed focused on my own work and my own goals and what I needed to do for you and the kids, and, you know, she has come around now and it's good.
STEVE: That's great. And there is one more negative thing there we should touch on, Kim, before we move on and finish up the show. That is that there is a temptation, of course, to manipulate your way into setting a boundary.
STEVE: We know we were quite critical a few years ago of a particular book called The Rules and it was written by a couple of well-connected, attractive women from New York.
STEVE: Socialites who were very good and had dated a lot and learned a whole bunch of rules.
KIM: Married well.
STEVE: They married well in the end and considered themselves to be quite successful in knowing how to get men to respond and react the way they wanted them to. We read the book and we were very interested in what they had to say, but we felt overall it was a very manipulative process. And there was some positive sides of it like we just talked about in this radio show, Kim, about setting boundaries and saying, "This is not what is going to be acceptable for me", and that's positive. But to manipulate other people into a position where they won't cross that boundary is quite abusive and could be regarded as bullying in many ways.
KIM: And it's certainly not going to create depth in your relationship long term.
STEVE: That's right. So it's a different game if you are manipulating the people around you into obeying your boundaries or obeying your rules—that' s a game of manipulation and a game of strategy you are playing. What we are talking about and what our whole product range is based on, is about playing a different game. That game is to build really strong connections with the people around you, being honest, having firm convictions and being okay within yourself.
KIM: Yes - built on your own self-respect and your own ability to set strong boundaries for yourself and also have goals for yourself and emotional maturity. I think it's good you bring that up at this point, because this is a really clear demonstration of how what we offer isn't manipulation. Because the truth is a lot of the things we recommend are going to make people really upset with you at times.
KIM: We teach people how to stand up for themselves, and not everybody around you is going to like that.
STEVE: That's right.
KIM: But we also teach you how to deal with that when they don't necessarily like it. In the long run, however, that's what really builds deep and lasting relationships that are built on mutual respect, honesty and truth and anybody who is out there who is teaching things otherwise, who are saying here is a bag full of tricks that is going to get people reacting how you want them to; tricks that are going to make people love you or make people beholden to you—I really have severe doubts about how well that is going to work in the long term toward longer lasting, deeper maturity in people's ability to be intimate with each other.
STEVE: Sure and things become revealed over time, so if you have approached the relationship in a manipulative way, that is going to be revealed at some stage.
STEVE: You can't hide that forever. Even if you have good intentions later, it's really going to be a lot of doubt there. You have left the boundary open, in many ways.
KIM: Like Elvis said, "You said you were high class, but that was a lie".
STEVE: That's right and you know how the rest of the song goes!
KIM: Because if that little crying baby is still in there that wants to be fed and taken care of, it's going to come out and show it's ugly self sooner or later. And I have to be honest about it because it is ugly. Nobody wants to take care of the immature needs of another adult. It's not attractive. It's hard work learning to grow beyond that, but it's work that is really very well worth it.
STEVE: And to support you with that, we have a bit of a holiday package we would like to share with you now. Kim, let's just talk about it a little bit. Our book is in print and this is item #1 in the package.
KIM: Yep. Our first e book is now in print, and the rest will be in print soon. In the meantime, I have put together a bit of a holiday package which means you will get Back From the Looking Glass in print, which is right here. This is a guide if you are in an abusive relationship, so that may not be appropriate for everybody who is watching. But what I have done is sort of rolled together a little bit of the best of everything for a Holiday Emergency Package. Our holiday special includes Back From the Looking Glass. It includes a couple of the most important limiting abuse exercises from The Love Safety Net Workbook and it also includes some of our best self-soothing tools from 10 Steps to Overcome Codependence, so it's a little bit of everything rolled together into a crash course that can really help you through these difficult times. It can be difficult when there is a lot of pressure on people financially and in a lot of other ways.
Besides that, what I would really recommend to anyone who really wants to get into the whole get fit and get your relationships fit and back on track program -- and you are not in an abusive relationship -- because maybe you are still dating and have had failed relationships in the past and you don't want that to happen again, is The Love Safety Net Workbook. That really is our comprehensive exercise manual. I don't have one here to show you, but it really goes through step-by-step. It gives you exercises and a chance to chart your progress and to really see what you need to be working on. A lot of the principles you need to work on are things that won't come instinctively to you and they won't be things you naturally want to turn to.
STEVE: That's right. Now our workbook, for people who are not familiar with it, our workbook gives a platform of how to build the relationship you want. It's not a whole series of dogma we have set down for you. Kim and I don't know what kind of relationship you are looking for. We do know you need this basic platform. It's called The Love Safety Net Workbook because it is giving you those basic principles to work off where it strips it back down. We are not leading you in any particular path other than getting yourself emotionally stable and on track.
KIM: It will help in all your relationships. The principles involved will help in your relationships with your kids, with your parents, with your in-laws, with your partner, with your boss, with your friends. It really is the bare bones principles of what creates attraction, what are the effective ways of setting limits on other people disrespecting you, and on what it is to become emotionally intelligent and emotionally mature.
STEVE: All right. Kim, it's been great doing a radio show with you again. I'm glad we could do this one for free. The next one probably won't be. Thanks, Kim. Thanks for coming in. Again, this is The Love Safety Net. A lot of fun, isn't it?
KIM: Yep, it certainly is. And Happy Holidays everyone! Bye!
Please see our holiday special here;