Narcissism and Geeks

I am usually writing about Narcissism and Codependence but for something different, today I want to compare Narcissists and geeks.

To start out I better come right out and admit something I haven't often shared, which is that myself and my son show symptoms of Aspergers syndrome. So not only am I a slave to my computer but also a science fiction fan and, well the list goes on, but basically I am no longer ashamed to say I am a female geek :-)

Over the last year as my self awareness has increased, I started wondering, do people with Narcissistic Personality Disorder and people with Asperger's Syndrome have anything in common? I mean there is no doubt bullies and geeks have always had a symbiotic relationship, but is it simply predator/prey, perpetrator/victim or is there more going on beneath the surface with these two characters than we may think?

Since I often write magazine style ebooks you might think that now would be a good time to include a picture, but instead today I have included a movie that you can watch to get a better idea of the diagram I am about to describe ...

First lets start with a circle. At the top of the circle put the word 'connected' and the bottom 'disconnected'.

Starting with extremes, on the bottom right side and next to the word 'disconnected' lets put the words 'severely autistic' and picture a speechless adult sitting on the floor rocking and flapping their hands. On the left side but still at the bottom now put the words 'severely psychopathic' and see a sadistic individual who believes we are all objects that exist purely for their own use.

OK now to the top of our circle above the word connected let's imagine a happy individual who enjoys time with their friends and family and who keeps their loved ones close in their heart even when they are apart.

Now compare the picture at the top to the two at the bottom and maybe you will begin to see why we have the words 'connected' and 'disconnected' at the vertical extremes ...

With not much else in common the severely autistic and severely psychopathic stereotypes we have pictured are similar in their level of disconnection from other human beings.

Back to our circle we now move to the far right where we put the word Aspergers Syndrome where we see a reclusive science fiction fan computer geek type. Continuing with this theme at the far left we will put the words Narcissistic Personality Disorder and picture a charming and charismatic preacher doing immoral things behind his wife and his congregations back and, since this is a blog about narcissism, a second example of your stereotyped football jock who has only passed his exams each year because his teachers have all been threatened, bribed or charmed.

So from top to bottom and despite their differences, the geek and the jock/preacher are actually at the same level of social disconnection; they are all in specialized jobs and although the preacher and the jock have more charisma and may be more popular, you may still find it hard to picture any of these types happily sitting around playing a friendly game of Scrabble after a family Sunday roast.

So that's one thing geeks and bullies have in common; I wonder if we can find anything else?

How about arrogance, lack of empathy or being controlling of others? These are all symptoms of each of these disorders. How about self centeredness and lack of genuine interest in others? The more I began to ponder this, the harder it actually became to find differences at all... but hang on now, I mean bullies and geeks are completely different aren't they? You can spot them a mile apart!

So yes of course there are differences, such as ...

- The geeks controlling behaviour is an attempt to deal with their anxiety while the narcissist's masks some deceit or inadequacy.

- The narcissists arrogance is socially accepted by general society where the geeks is not.

- The geek will be more likely to be honest (unless you are a nasty corporation someone has challenged him to hack, but questioned in court still he will not be able to lie about it to save his life)

- Their levels of apparent self esteem are miles apart (this is why geeks don't tend to sell used cars)

- Their level of competence will be different (with the geek probably less flakey at what they do).

OK so back to our circle; what general term can we use for the right and left as I have the bottom and top? At first I thought it might have something to do with how well they hide their dysfunction, but then I looked into the mirror and knew I was wrong. You see Aspergers people are much easier to pick if they are men. Women geeks like myself hide it better (or try to) and while not usually invited to lots of parties, most people won't guess that they are home watching Star Trek. That could actually be a test for Aspergers in women, spell the second word in Star Trek. Trust me most highly connected women will get it wrong. There is a book on my 'still to read' list called "Pretending to be normal" which is about women with Aspergers and I love that title, because it is the story of my life.

I wonder how many people with Narcissistic Personality Disorder tendencies pair up with people with Aspergers symptoms and if a lot of women who pair up with narcissistic men are geeks in disguise (like me)? Steve and my story was school football captain marries the class nerd. But since we went to differnt schools I thought he may have never guessed, but maybe he did? I mean geeks are such a great foil ... who better to scape goat your wrong doings and feelings of disconnection and inadequacy on than a woman who is barely suceeding at pretending to be normal and in her heart knows she is very socially challenged?

OK so this is just a hypothesis and I am sure there are lots of women with male narcissistic partners who both spell and pronounce Star Trek wrong (as any healthy and well connected woman should :-) ), but still I wonder if there is anything to this theory and if there are geek men out there who get lied to, cheated on and put down by their narcissistic wives too? The sad fact is I know at least some who do.

So these are all good questions to ponder because although in the case of stereo types it is easier to pick predator and prey, in real life it can be much harder and sheeps clothing for wolves comes in many styles and there are sheep dressing like wolves now too.

And to make it even harder still, I believe that at some points in our lives many of us can entirely swap these roles as well. For instance I am not proud of how I treated some of the boys I went out with when I was a teenager.

So back to our circle, it looks like we will definately have to throw out hiding the dysfunction as the criteria for the left/right extremes but I have come up with some ideas in my short movie here;

I don't pretend to have all the answers on this but if you are in a lousy relationship I do have three questions you can ask yourself to find out which side you are on, in case your wolf in sheeps clothing has brainwashed you that it is your own fault they put you down - or the wolf suit you put on years ago has taken over so completely you have forgotten that you truly are a sheep inside ...

If you are brave enough to ask yourself these three questions simply subscribe to my site here;

Please I welcome all discussion on this in the comments section here and especially if you are a geek (and not ashamed to admit it) with a partner with NPD symptoms I would love for you to use this space to let us know and see if there is in fact a trend.

Live long and prosper ...

Kim Cooper


  1. I have found myself swapping roles at the same stage in my life, with different people: clingy and needy with my partner, but impatient, cold, and uncaring with my mother (more interested in getting away to go seek some attention supply). I felt like I was treating my mother in a similar way to how my partner treated me. This was a strange experience.

  2. Kim & Steve,
    I for one, agree. I am a female brainiac, I was cute and confident b/c of grades, I married a N. Sometimes resented I think.
    I know something of NPA theory, Narcissistic-Perfectionistic-Aggressive which says like picks like. (N-OCD-Bully) Our son definitely has Asperger Traits-dad is OCD/addiction on sexuality, son on phobias. Dad can lie/deceive, Son has been told too honest for own good. I went to a Math & Science School for geeks- only place I felt I was accepted for self. On continuum, Gifted students and Special Ed taught the same, with normals in middle. The no limits/unrealistic vs no goals/reactive is both of us. I did finish Law School but stayed home with son and got sidetracked. My goal is not to have my son flip from extremes but end close to the middle. BTW Capt James T Kirk's middle name is Tiberius. See? Dweebs unite.
    Right On. NJ, USA

  3. You hit the nail on the head Kim :) In the past I have hidden my love of science fiction because it always attracted men I didn't find attractive back. So I guess I was pretending to be normal too. In the end one male slipped under the radar, and we both lurv almost any films with space and rockets in them. (It wasn't him, but my ex, that caused me to find your material, and it's been like getting into a warm bath, thank you.)

  4. Yes! Kim, I've thought about this precise subject in my family life. I'm so excited you're working on this. I've often been so grateful for your emotional intelligence work because it's helping me "bridge" the sense of connect/disconnect, as well as learning to trust the value of emotion as an indicator. I've often tried to puzzle out my entire experience logically, but that alone has its limits...and leaves me feeling like a true geek.

  5. my npd spouse has a clearly asperger's brother and another who is a ritalin child who became an addict quasi adult--his mother is clearly autistic or delusional npd, not sure, really, my mom is a clear npd but is also bipolar, my dad a n alcoholic ( npd i would suppose) and I am a brainiac with brainiac children who seem to pride themselves on being loveable dorks, but who also seem to attract the npd adolescents at school in droves (as I have all my life).

    Theres alot to be said for noting this spectrum of disorder.

  6. Very interesting...
    I subscribed a couple months ago, and have to say this is the first time I actually took the time to read one of these. I have it sent to my work email, and rarely take the time to read them, though I always save the emails with the intention of getting to it "sometime."

    I have been married for 21 years, but separated for 6+. We are currently in the process of finalizing our divorce and also going through a nasty custody battle. It is quite stressful...

    I subscribed to your newsletters b/c a friend of mine suggested it. her husband (or ex, rather) was recently diagnosed w/Narcissism and she sees the same characteristics in mine. I read some of the info in the beginning, and actually had been beginning to see it myself. Sadly, I was fooled for so long!! He manipulated and controlled me, and made me alwatys feel as if I was at fault.

    What is so amazing about this particular posting is that my son is ADHD, as am I. He is served through Special Education, minimally, but still he has an IEP. I myself am a Special Educator and have much knowledge of the disability as well as others. When my son was found eligible, he was also tested for Asperger's. Though he was not found eligible, the psychological does note than he exhibits traits that cannot be explained by the ADHD, and are similar to PDD. My estranged husband has taken this and run with it. He is trying to get custody, and was using the fact that the school in his zone has an Autism program. However, he called it an "Asperger's program". I have explained numerous times that our son does not have Asperger's and even if he did, he does not need a program, b/c he is served in the General Ed. class. My husband continues to argue that he is Asperger's and has even gone as far to say that I do as well!! LOL

    After reading the piece on Narcissism and Aspreger's I am enlightened. I, nor my so have Asperger's however he does have similar traits...and I probably do as well. The thing is...lots of disabilities have similar traits, and cross-over and this is why a really good evaluation must be done before making a diagnosis. Asperger's is a serious psychatric diagnosis, and it bothers me that it is thrown around so easily these days. However, I can see how many people show signs of it, and how many are "in the spectrum" as we so like to say! I can very much see how the "geeks" fall under this umbrella, at least unofficially!

    This is just all very interesting to me. I truly beleive that my husband has Narcissism. I also realize that he will probably never be diagnosed b/c he will never see it. The problem at this point is he is very charming, very entitled, and very controlling. He has a female lawyer who also seems to be "in the spectrum." According to my lawyer, she takes everything at face value, and believes everything he says. She even said to my lawyer, the other day, "your client is very controlling." She was speaking of me! I do not feel that I am...but he is amazing! He will not even allow our child to see his own family. He disassociates himself from anyone who disagrees with him in some manner, or stands up to him, and that is what has happened with his family. He is currently trying to do the same thing to me, and I am thinking that is one reason he wants he can disassociate himself more. As long as our child is w/me he can only do this so much.

    We actually had a fairly good relationship, even after our split up, until just recently (the past year or two). I believe this is b/c I have finally "woken up" and begun to stand up to him.

    Anyway...thanks for the enlightenment! I will definitely make the time to read these, in the future.

  7. I have finally removed myself from a nine year relationship from a man who lies about everything and anything and I have forgiven him three times for his cheating on me.
    I am nearly 58 and he is nearly 60 and living with a woman eight years his junior.

    It was a difficult relationship as he controlled what er eat, when we ate it .He did not make it easy to have hobbies, friends(he had none) or see my family. His moods were so changeable and he would resent me if I asked him what he did at lunch time. The list is endless .but just when I down sized my holiday home to make it easier for us to retire and had treated us to a american holiday, he went off with a woman from work. He lies to everyone and she does notknow it really. He is know tring to claim part of my house and other such things. Why do people behave like this. Yet to the outside world he is charming, professional and seems like a good guy.
    british isles

  8. Wow! Interesting concept. Although I am not a "Trekie", I do have a higher than average I.Q. and I am a high school science teacher. My N father once told me that I intimidate men because they don't like smart women. Most of the men I dated or married have been N and have held blue collar jobs. They range from verbal abusive to physical abusive. The most difficult relationship for me to break is with a man who was valedictorian in high school and is a PHD in non other than P.E. He often preaches about how hard he worked for both and how many hours he spent studying. He criticizes everybody and everything. He hasn't seen or heard from one daughter for years and the other seems to have replaced his mother. He lies more than he tells the truth; even about trivial things. He gets very emotional when he speaks of his relationship with God or when he speaks of what a great guy he is. If I disagree with him about anything, he blows up. His mood swings consist of loving me with all his heart to wanting me out of his life. When he wants me back, he denies the previous events as if I'm crazy. I have discovered files that he keeps on women with pictures and correspondence. He loves romancing women into loving him. He puts a lot of effort into coercing with promises of "forever". He tends to use the same lines and if he receives one he likes, he will start using it. It is noteworthy to mention that his childhood was troubled and that he felt he had to get married to be a father his senior year.

    Enough background...

    Here's the tie...

    His mother was a teacher, he is a teacher, his two daughters are teachers, his ex-wife was a teacher, and most of his prior/current relationships are with teachers.

    I recently heard a quote that might come in usefull to some of you... "When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time."

    Thanks for the time you put into this.

    P.S. Just to be clear, I am no saint and have cursed this man 'till a fly wouldn't lite on him!

  9. Hello everybody. Kim and Steve many thanks. I have been using and applying your material for more than a year now and I can't tell you how much I learned from it and how much I have been able to develop and empower myself. It really works, Kim, esp. the 4 legged stool, increasing sovereignty, fortification of selfrespect. Works miracles. I have been diagnosed BPD in the past and I alway wanted to write you about the fact that BPD's and NPD's attract and often become couples. However, after reading this blog, I am starting to think it might be like this:
    Personality/psychiatric disorders create/enhance new disorders in the next generation and in spouses and in victims (e.g. in cruel wars). They reproduce themselves and they are contagious. They are attracted to each other. NPD attracts CoDep, Antisocial PD attracts Avoidant PD, NPD attracts BPD, etc. etc. Second: I am also starting to believe that PD's are much more volatile than believed by psychiatric science. By applying Kim's advices I have literally BANNED from my life all BPD behaviour, thoughts and emotions. I am discovering another self with capabilities I didn't know I had: leadership, love, emotional intelligence, strength, self esteem. My thinking is that a parent with an PD is never alone but it is always a couple and most probable an environment with a lot of PD's (all dysfunctional, badly connected people with low self esteem and no social skills, but normal looking on the outside). A child in such an environment learns no social skills, develops no emotional intelligence etc. And a new PD is being born. All PD's are much more curable than medical science believe. The key is social skills, insight, selfesteem, all the things that Kim has found out for us. Kim, Steve, God bless you. Go on with your great work. I wish you love, luck and prosperity. (Kim, if you would like to exchange thoughts with me, I am the one who transcribed your radio show about stonewalling and the rules).

  10. Kim, I try. I used all the tools: "when you do x, y, z, I feel hopeless." After a recent rather nasty verbal lashing (received because I have a lesser opinion of his money management), I explained in a long thoughtful email that I understood he was upset about my opinions, that I would like to work on the money management together, but the incessant verbal rampage and name-calling was not going to squeeze an apology or ounce of remorse from me. I talked about the communication skills and tools we had at our disposal. His response? He refuses to share in the money management, (putting my financial security at risk), and he says, "You come off as smug, superior, and self-righteous. Maybe more self-satisfied."

    I have decided to refrain from engaging him at this point. I've said my piece and his response proves my point. But I'm still hurt and lost and having a hard time accepting the truth of his emotional immaturity. And I'm terrified of staying and I'm terrified of leaving.

    Do you have any words of encouragement or advice?

  11. Kim,

    This is a long post, but it is important and relavent. I believe you are onto something.

    My SO has Aspergers. It took me our entire marriage to figure that out (nine years) and I'm the one who pointed it out to him. He agreed after reading the symptoms.

    I've been taken "social hostage." I am on your site because I have allowed that to happen.

    He was bullied, and he bullies me (I've been researching how the bullied becomes the bully). The bullying is mostly subtly and sometimes not so subtly (but never ever physical). He does it for make himself appear to be the one who is always on top of things (does so by pointing out my faults).

    I don't think I'm narcissistic, but possibly a little??? Maybe his anti-social behavior makes me feel safe and special. For example, I feel like he won't leave me and he likes being with me and nobody else? Still sorting through all of this.

    My burning question is how do I get outside help??? I certainly don't need the police because acting bratty b/c your wife made a mistake simply is not abuse. And, we've moved eight hours drive from my family and have no close friends here. He doesn't need anybody and does EVERYTHING himself. He expects me to be this way too and I'm simply not.

    I would love creative ideas on how to change things! I don't want to give up, but I am so lonely. I sometimes just want to disappear (I feel like in part I already have).

    Please please please help.


  12. Hi Kim!

    Thanks for all your beautiful articles. I've discovered I'm myself a narcissist and I was in a 7 years relationship in which my exboyfriend was a geek. Now I know this, I'd like to get him back. I miss him so much... What can I do? I'm trying to use all your advices from the "Back from the Looking Glass" book to have a change in me... Sometimes I'm afraid it's too late. Please! Give me your advice.

  13. I grew up with a father who had high functioning aspergers. It is something way beyond being a geek. There is no normal emotional connection. Narcissists also display no normal emotional connections. I don't think that these two compliment, it's just that an aspergers person could tolerate living with discordant emotional reality. The problem starts when it doesn't make sense any more. The emotional disconnect starts eating into the family wealth.
    Now the pattern student goes to work. I have a normal emotional reality, I just never expected it to be returned. When a nurse diagnosed my dad, after he had such a difficult life, totally misunderstood, I nearly fell on the floor. I went home and researched, and the first reaction I had was to my husband, if you want to leave me, it's ok because there is something wrong with me. It turned out that what was wrong with me was a high tolerance for emotional and physical annihilation within my marriage. Yes, I apply Kims discoveries, the one I like the best is just greeting everyone by their names. It seems to set a wonderful tone. Better yet, it would be great if everybody wore tight orange jumpsuits.... spaceship enterprise.... a day at a time. Jen

  14. Hi to everyone, this post it seems has gone into another dimension! I was sure I had answered all the comments here but it seems my answers have disappeared?

    I don't have a lot of time right now but want to add a couple of ideas and hopefully ones that will also help Gracie.

    First is that I do take the Asperger's diagnosis seriously and my son has in fact been diagnosed - but only after they saw that I had actually taught him about making eye contact and then they understood. I doubt he would be diagnosed again now if he went back again however as he is now so much better. The thing is that Asperger's is a syndrome which means that no two people with it are likely to have exactly the same symptoms and women definitely present differently than men (for a bunch of reasons I won't go into here). I also think that people can get better (just as I believe narcissists can) and I hope this doesn't create even more controversy about our message!

    My symptoms were definitely mild - but I still shudder to say that because the anxiety and social phobia I experienced as a child growing up was horrendous. I look back on the earlier part of my life as something like a bad trip or nightmare that I have now 'woken up' from.

    For anyone who wants to explore this further I would suggest that they look at the BED diet and completely eliminate any food in their diet which causes anxiety. For me that was coffee, wine and most drugs or herbal remedies. I also do not tolerate wheat or alcohol well at all.

    I believe that behavior modification can help and know that people can learn to relate better from studying books because this is exactly what I did and why I know so much about human relations and believe other people can learn from books too. It never came naturally for me you see and so I studied everything I could read. This only worked after I had dealt with the toxicology problems however, which I do believe is the major underlying issue with autism spectrum disorders.

    I don't hide in books anymore and lead a much more balanced life than I did once. Hooray for computers that we can work from home on however as the world of office politics is way beyond what I ever want to be able to manage (LOL), it is good to know ones limitations I guess.

    I will try and see if I can contact you direct somehow Gracie. But for now check out the BED diet and see if you can get your husband on it. It is really out there (you will be eating things you never heard of before) but I have personally followed cases of fairly severely autistic kids who after a few years of being on BED are now back in the school system with no signs of autism. This is the truth and I have followed it first hand on line and also experienced such a profound change in myself from following the principles but that is a whole other story but there are other people online covering that so I will leave it to them but do check it out!

    Kim Cooper

  15. This is extremely exciting information to me. I think I may have Aspergers but I'm not sure. I have a lot of the symptoms but I just read they don't naturally have empathy whereas I've always been hypersensitive to the moods of others. This leads me to withdraw as a self-protection. I wonder, are empathy and sensitivity different functions? Could I have a form of aspergers or is it something else? I have the symptoms of extreme introspection, inclined to slurred speech and coordination difficulties. It has debilitated me socially and in general functionality all my life. As a child I had secret bullies and as an adult, partners who are still bullies. But coming across this information today is blowing my mind, the connection of these concepts. Your acute insights and the way you make them so relatable are amazing. Do you have any suggestions or referrals as to how I can investigate whether I have this?

  16. Hi anonymous ...

    I was the same - acutely aware and sensitive to others emotions but it didn't show because exactly as you say I would withdraw and self protect in any situation where people were being overly emotional. I felt empathy sure but there was no way I could help because it was just too intense for me. Books were always my hiding place.

    I never got a diagnosis and only started learning about it when my son was suspended so many times from school that we had to start schooling him at home. We found out he had Asperger's and that was how I started to find out about me.

    I am not sure where is best for you to start - I found some useful information here on autism;

    but as I mentioned earlier it is the concepts in the BED diet that really helped me the most along with making sure that I religiously get sunshine everyday, regular sleep (I black out my bedroom) and take some different kinds of chelation agents if I am getting foggy and anxious.

    The other thing I would not recommend is Asperger's or autism forums as I met a lot of very unkind people on those.

    I hope this helps, remember it is a syndrome so no two people are the same - the main indictors I believe are a tendency to be bullied and fairly acute anxiety which a person may handle in very different ways. Boys tend to be allowed to withdraw into their own world more than girls and so the symptoms can be very different I believe.

    Kim Cooper

    PS. Our workbook and "The Little Book of Empathy Love and Friendship" are full of ideas that I have found very useful for myself in learning to get along with people better!

  17. Hi Kim I found your theories around asberger's and how it relates to NPD really interesting. I've been through a journey of discovery over the past 8 months for myself and my partner after I accidentally typed in mood swing -through predictive text in google - this led me through a journey from borderline PD, NPD to the personality cluster which these PD's belong to. For a couple of years I knew there was something not quite right with my partner (male), but it was nothing I could quite work out and we even made it to a GP to discuss his strange behaviour but to which he just ended up blaming on me at the GP appt. I realised then that this was not some straightforward mental health thing going on and decided that a convential path was not going to work. I would try to search on the net for answers - I often thought he had some sort of asperger perhaps then I stumbled upon the personality disorders - OMG it was exactly what I was experiencing. Over the 4years I think I've seen my partner go from being more NPD to more BPD then back to NPD as well as the asberger - no goals and emotional reactivity.

    SO I have come to a possible hypothesis that maybe my partner has asbergers/some spectrum of mild autism(he has some really uncanny abilities also)but the personalities disorders have developed on top of this as a way to try to fit in because they have some sense to work out how they are not fitting in. His father definitely has some sort of NPD/asbergers and my partner appears to be similar to his dad however his brother and sister are not, even though they were bought up in a similar environment.

    I thought I might have made an interesting observation and wonder if anyone has thought about the connection between NPD and the autism spectrum.

  18. Hi Kim
    I note with interest your reference to diet - I too have some experience with food related issued.
    As someone who found they were a coeliac (allergy to gluten) in their 30's I have felt first hand how food can affect people not only physically but mentally (inability to concentrate, fogginess,feeling glum. I had other side affects from my having an unknown allergy well after going off gluten. It included not being able to have coffee, wine, just generally anything that was too rich in natural or artifical chemicals. I also can't digest fructose properly because of damage to my digestive tract from the gluten allergy. IT was the Fructose malabsorption (FM) that was causing my fogginess) Fructose/Fructins are natural sugars in certain fruits, veges and grains and wheat products(bread etc) ,apples fruit juices, onions(especially onion powder have high conc. of fructose. FM is really common. Mine was caused by my GLuten allergy however just general infection can damage the fructose receptors in the digestive tract.

    It's 6 years on from my diagnosis and I still can't have too much fructose rich foods but my sensitivities to other food like coffee and wine have gone. I was just one of many undiagnosed coeliacs. Many doctors don't even realise that the average age for CD diagnosis is now 40 years rather than as a child. I hope someone find this info useful.

  19. Asperger's is a totally new term for me and something I will have to think about. I think I have always been considered a nerd and certainly very shy with severe social anxiety. Spent most of my school years with my nose in a book to avoid contact with others. Spend my time now on computers. I am very much in need of a new job that will allow me to continue to work at home from a computer. My husband is definitely a NPD type. He has told me that I scare him because he knows I am smarter than he is, so that is part of what threatens him and causes him to be so controlling with me. So much new information here for me to think about. Lmm

  20. Okay, I just found out about your website and blog. I am very much interested in this subject and would like to discuss this with you in detail. Yes, my husband is definitely Asperger's. I knew something was different about him, but didn't have a name for it. I too have a lot of problems that contributed to the problems in our marriage and after 21 years of marriage, and 2 daughters, my husband told me he wasn't happy and moved out. Two weeks later he filed for divorce. There were a lot of things that happened but I would prefer not to post them on this blog.
    As I said, I would really like to discuss this with you in more detail. Please respond.

  21. NCC 1700101 D or e if youre talking nemesis ;) i officially join the nerdy girls who date bully guys club

  22. Kim Cooper this is a wonderfully informative site. The comparison concerning the qualities of an Aspergers and an NP disorder are fabulous...and I thought i was the only one to see this comparison in my life. It is a comfort to know that someone else is making this information available to the general public.

  23. Very interesting. I am often thinking about this link between ASD and NPD. It is the first time I come across someone putting the two together so simply on a continuum of connected to disconnected.

    I was more seeing NPD traits or codependence traits as a consequence of a hypersensitive physical and emotional being or a traumatized being. Therefore people with ASD being more at risk to develop it as co-mobidity from secondary complication to their primary different neurological make up.

    My husband and I both come from families with NPD parents and we have been struggling through ups and downs with very poor communication skills since the beginning of our relationship 13 years ago. I have always felt I had similar challenges to people with Asperger or ASD: sensory and emotional over-sensitivity mainly. My husband has anxiety and control issues. I learned to stand up to him and reclaim my life but it is a work in progress. He loves me more now that I am no carpet anymore. Still the connection and the attachment is something to improve in our relationship.

    Anyways, my son is extremely sensitive, had huge issues with poor attachment 3 years ago (when he was 6 y.o.) that are now much better (also a constant work). SInce I learned about attachment disorder and therapy for my son I have started seeing it as a secondary problem for kids on the spectrum. One mother of a child with ASD developed a very successful approach to helping her son based on building strong attachment. See There was a research presented at the SPD foundation conference in Boston 2 years ago about the link between sensory processing challenges at 1 year old and psycho-pathologies at 6 years old. It was very enlightening.

    SO tonight instead of sleeping, or typing my reports, or doing some administrative work that is waiting to be done, I am hooked to my computer..... I cannot read fiction books anymore. It is just like drug for me, not a joke. So much work to do on myself!

    A last note on NPD and ASD: I think our species is changing (they say 1/70 boy or 1/100 child has ASD with 1/150 being diagnosed at this time). Are we growing disconnected from our emotions as a species? Are genetic changes happening from our exposure to all that we release in the environment in such a subtle way that we don't see it happening at a bigger scale? If this is happening, then Kim there will be a big need for your material in the years ahead because we may have to work at managing and using our emotions in a way that the humans did not need to do in the past because they were wired to do it, are the wires being disconnected?

    Obviously I am getting lost sharing these thoughts with all of you because it feels good and I still cannot have my husband ears on such topics as ASD for more than 60 seconds.... of course!

    Good night.

    Certainly a geek.

    1. It amazes me thinking that as a child my husband with temporal lobe epilepsy and who knows what else geeky symptoms may have just not been able to develop emotionally, and all the NPD may be that emotional lack playing out. I get so angry at his abuse and apparent lack of interest in me, hypo-sexuality etc. but I see after reading all these posts I have to allow God more room as I set boundaries and take care of Me, the Mommy of 6 (number 6) on the way and get a lot more rest for me and let my husband get a life of his own, even as I coach him in attachment. Every time I get angry he goes into la la land and is gone for days--I can see I am able to care for him if I care for myself first. I will have to figure out how to do this differently, I've weaned off of books for at least a year now, so I understand all that is being said. How interesting. MB

  24. Hi to everyone and sorry I haven't got back here for awhile but I have been working on a new site that is hopefully a larger door to my work!

    I love all the geeky-girls writing in here it makes me feel so much less alone. Some great geek girl reading this who has computer skills should start an online geeky-girls club!!!

    If they do I am happy to help write a column or write whatever on whatever they like.

    Hang in there all of you including Yoll - I am so sorry I didn't get back to you - you must be feeling a huge loss. I hope that things are improving for you now.

    To 'certainly a geek girl' I think there are a number of things are causing this increase in the world;

    a. The amount of misinformation about how to deal with your emotions wisely (the words to nearly every song?) and lack of information on how to deal with them well (I hope I am changing that - have you read "emotional stupidity?")

    b. The ipod and mobile phone generation which encouages peer attachment rather than vertical attachment (have you read Gordon Nuefeld's book "Hold on to your kids?")

    c. The amount of neurological toxins in our environment (alkalise alkalise! and check out the Bedrock diet! Cutting open young coconuts is a skill worth learning (-: )

    Back to the general geek thing I know that personally I have a hard time multi tasking which seems to be expected of all mothers. For instance I just checked myself into a hotel for two nights this week to get some writing done which I couldn't concentrate on around the kids. I couldn't really afford it but otherwise I was going to go crazy! It was so funny though because my kids told eveyone I was staying in a hotel and of course they thought Steve and I were getting divorced, and were extremely surprised! But then the kids said "No it is all good we are going over to take her dinner and have a pool party!" (it was my daughter's birthday), we had a great laugh about that but I think it left a few people confused!!!

    My family loves me so much now - if there is a moral to this story geek-girls it is to not be afraid of putting strong boundaries around your goals!!!

    KIm Cooper

  25. And I thought I was part narcissist! Ha! Wow, the way that I act out is like a geek. I would stomp my feet and scream really high pitched when I wanted something from my first man. I read the dictionary during school, I am amazing with numbers. I have a photographic memory, which is fading with age, as a child I got 100% on a Grade 6 Social Achievement test (I hate social) because I checked in my memory and read all the answers right out of the textbook --- I even had a mental photo of the table of contents so I could find what page it was on and flip to it in my head. I was a nerd, I was a teacher's pet, and I like to get 100% on everything I do. I am quite beautiful but have always kind of hid behind my glasses and ponytail. When I do myself up, I have been said to be irresistable. I try to do that more often now. I am socially awkward. In socially awkward situations I will use that last sentance as an opener, haha. I accept that I am a geek, and have always stood up for that. I shy on obsessiveness. I have a determination that is unmatched in most people I know. I feel I can do anything if I try hard enough, yet if I have done everything I can I find it easy enough to let go. I very much try to engage the rest of my brain. I can hit a baseball harder, run faster, catch better, get more goals, tackle harder, dance better, sing in tune... I might have to try a helluva lot harder than most people, but I will do it if I put my mind to it. Oh, the mind is a powerful tool. Maybe us geeks are special, we just have to apply our abilities to their full potential.

  26. What a load of bunkum!

  27. The geek/jock relationship is perfectly symbiotic and can be explained as a mutually-reciprocal dominance/submission dynamic.

    First, let's not chalk jocks down to being stupid, and geeks to being intelligent. That's just a stereotype that has no scientific substance whatsoever. Charisma, after all, requires a lot more actualized intelligence than knowing the crew member's name on the USS Enterprise (I'm not really talking about the meathead jock here; I'm merely highlighting that the geek claim to intelligence is a false one rooted in their narcissism and their sense of physical inferiority). The difference is that while the geek might want to socialize, he finds himself unable to, while the jock does. With all that time, the geek looks to other uses of his time, likely ones he can use to pretend to a level of superiority which, frankly, he does not possess.

    Getting back to the issue the geek/jock dynamic, geeks feed largely on resentment. That is, they enjoy using the jock as the scapegoat for all their frustrations. "I fail socially because the jock doesn't permit me to succeed." Victimhood is glorified this way when the jock actually cares enough to assault the geek (which frankly, I've never seen happen in high school. It's probably largely a Hollywood invention made up by...geeks). To compensate, the geeks invent a myth of intellectual superiority that is meant to give them a sense of having the upper hand, at least in some way. Jocks may generally rely on complementary myths, or so the stereotype goes, and the rest of the world goes on without caring about the two feuding camps.

    I think our current culture makes it exceedingly easy for a person to develop into a narcissist, a self-centered, self-involved brat. And unfortunately, narcissists are quite prominent architects of this failing culture, among them the technocratic geeks who are accumulating an increasing share of influence. We are dehumanizing the individual, we have destroyed the community, and we reward narcissism. We do it by making it appear glamorous. We have a lot of things to reform. Until then, we have no choice but to remember that we must do what we must to function in a sick society. Playing the martyr is just another form of narcissism.

  28. Hi Anon,

    No in Australia at least the jocks don't seem to be picking on other geek men so much these days but instead are in the papers every day for assaulting women - including their girlfriends.

    Anyone looking to pose as superior to their counterpart in this game and claim themselves the innocent victim (as you claim the jocks are) has really not understood the message I am making here.

    Intelligence is not so much the issue as healthy social connections and morality.

    I don't really care how smart someone is, if they are insensitive, prone to lying and/or scapegoating or exploiting other people I will likely find them a problem.

    Luckily there are laws against that type of behavior to help 'even up' the playing field and give morality a fighting chance even when it is pitted against superior physical or intellectual strength and/or popularity.

    The one attribute that both men and women alike rate as the highest in what makes the opposite sex attractive is kindness and anyone who has trouble admitting their mistakes and their own shame from time to time will be light on this quality.

    Instead of pointing the finger at geeks or society you might gain better returns on your mental investment by searching your own soul for what you are not proud of in yourself ...

    Just looking hard at our own faults is often enough to motivate us to work on transforming them.

    You make some interesting points but I must admit you do come across as having a rather large chip on your shoulder (-:

    Our gap finder in The Love Safety Net Workbook would be a great exercise for you ... if you are ready for it (-:

    Kim Cooper

  29. Hi Kim,

    In at least one instance, the male with Asperger's is infact the narcissist who is episodically abusive. It doesn't seem to be mutually exclusive. His mother is also a narcissist, although not an Aspi. She is ADD though, and there maybe a genetic connection between those conditions (Aspis and ADD).

    Anyway, this combo of Aspi and Narcissist is very hard to confront.

    To make things even more confusing, he's prince charming 90+ % of the time, and then turns abusive as if he has two personalities. (It's not MPD because he doesn't "loose time"; he remembers). It's like living with a warewolf.
    Nicest guy/cruel jerk.

    The thing is, he can hide it in public. That's what drew me to the title of the email with the back door.

    By the way, I appreciate what you said in a previous video about self soothing and our responsibility for our own happiness.

    Thank you.

  30. I love your work, Kim, but I always get concerned when an untrained person starts suggesting treatments for psychological disorders.

    I have almost completed a Masters degree in Psychology and I would a. definitely not feel ready or confident to suggest a treatment for Aspergers, and would advise a person to see someone with the necessary clinical experience or training (after of course getting a proper diagnosis), and b. know enough to know that there is a HUGE controversy about the impact of diet on conditions like Aspergers and ADHD.

    I'm really concerned that your avid followers, because of your success with NPD, will follow your advice without seeing a psychologist/psychiatrist or reject the advice of these professionals in favour of yours. I know of a few people who tried treating their children by changing their diets (without success) and missed out on many opportunities to deal with their conditions in other ways that have the necessary research backing due to their over-reliance on diet.

    No one is claiming that diet ISN'T a factor, but the evidence just isn't there, and it is very unlikely to be the only factor. The research is lacking because it would be very difficult and possibly harmful to run double blind randomised tests on all sorts of foods to come to the necessary conclusions.

    I also get worried when you advise people of the 'dangers' of psychotropic meds like anti-depressants. While it would be great if no one needed them, unfortunately some people do, to correct a chemical imbalance. And the video from Muriel's Wedding is misleading as there have been huge advances in these medications over the years that mean that you don't have to be a zombie while taking them.

    I think your program to address NPD is fantastic, and it addresses an area that many professionals have given up on, or haven't found effective treatment plans for. However, depression, ADHD and Aspergers are different - there has been a lot of research in these areas, in fact research is growing, and there are a lot of programs that have been shown to be effective.

    I would strongly encourage people with these conditions to consult a psychologist in addition to reading this material, particularly if it's for your child. You don't want to waste precious time that they could be embarking on a research based program while seeing if removing some food from their diet works.

  31. Hi MD,

    Thanks for your acknowledgement of our work and I do appreciate your concerns, my son has actually been diagnosed with Aspergers and diet has in fact helped him tremendously. We are not super strict about it but I notice when he stays with my mother for a few days he just collapses into himself and not much can draw him out. After a few days of eating better however he is back to himself again.

    I know this is anecdotal but that is what this site is all about. I will have to differ with you too that modern psychotropics are better. There is a lot to show that they are in fact causing an increased risk of suicide and harder to get off. I am also very concerned at the lack of science in the diagnosis procedure that gets people hooked on these drugs.

    Another anecdote - my father went to medical school in Texas and after graduating was very trusting and gung-ho in prescribing pharmacuticals. About 5 years later when he had his first patient die from an adverse drug reaction it really hit him hard. The boy was only 18.

    By the time my dad had been in practice 40 years he would only prescribe a drug if a patient practically forced him to - but still he took many self prescribed anti depressants he should not have been taking to deal with the guilt he suffered from the people he realized (in hind sight) he had hurt with the drugs he had prescribed.

    Just my story - thanks if you have an ear to listen.

    Kim Cooper

  32. Hi Kim, thanks for your response and I understand that this is just your story but my impression is that you do have some avid followers as your advice re NPD is definitely lacking anywhere else, and what you say (about NPD) is based on really sound principles. So I'm not sure that your blog is just for interest or entertainment purposes but that it is taken quite seriously. Reading through the comments people who come here are in pretty dire straits often so I think it's quite a responsibility that needs to be taken fairly seriously. And when it comes to N you clearly do take that responsibility very seriously.

    However, re your anecdotal comments about depression I'm not sure that's very helpful or responsible. It's not so much about opinion, it's about research and I'm afraid I think that perhaps someone who's studied psychology for 6 years may be in a slightly better position to comment on psychotropic medications and what the research shows - there are always exceptions but I can give you lots of examples of people who've tried other options but have only been able to live a better life after taking prescribed meds. And who felt a sense of shame or concern about doing so because of erroenous information provided to them. There are examples both ways but I really think you need to be careful about suggesting certain treatments (based on acedotal accounts) to vulnerable people without the right qualifications. You wouldn't tell people how to manage a heart condition so I don't think you should tell them to ignore the advice of their psychologist or GP - someone who's met them and examined them, has studied the research etc.

    I've taken antidepressants myself and I can assure you I didn't turn into a zombie!!

    Your father is of course in a position to make his own judgements - but he is a trained GP and has met and examined his patients.

    Perhaps (at least part of the reason) your son does better at home is because of a warm, loving family environment and it just so happens that you changed his diet at the same time the family dynamics changed (as an example, I wouldn't presume to say for sure as I don't know you :-)).

    I really am concerned about this. I think people don't take psychological problems as seriously as they do medical problems and they think that laypeople are in as good a position to make comments/suggest treatments as trained professionals. And I'd like that to change.

  33. Thanks for your concern MD but we may have to agree to differ on this matter.

    I am not sure if you understood the point of my last response which was to express my concern for your faith in these drugs and hope it doesn't come back to haunt you as it did my father. As I mentioned being a zombie is not so much the concern these days (and you may notice I have taken the Murial clip down sometime ago) as the addictive nature of these drugs and also the increased risk of suicide when taking them. Stevie Nicks recently came out with her own horror story of overcoming antidepressant addiction and there are stories which highlight the dangers of these medications in the news all too often now with celebrities suiciding while taking them. Unfortunately rather than see the danger - most people only see the celebrity link and think they are glamorous and even sometimes think suicide glamorous too.

    I assure you that I have in fact done more research into autism and depression than I have on NPD and my son (and my own) improvement
    has had a very strong link with diet. If I eat wrong for more than a few days all of my old anxiety symptoms return including obsessive behavior and social phobia.

    The Plasma universe theory has now finally been accepted by main stream science as an acceptable school for research. Most insiders know that the standard model of cosmology will not be with us for much longer even though all around the world students are still being taught about dark matter and black holes.

    This is a good example of how research outside what is taught in schools or accepted as mainstream is often what often produces real advances in science.

  34. The Electric Universe model which is now set to knock the standard theory of it's pedestal has been rubbished by mainstream science for 50 years. The trouble is that it predicts accurately what the radio telescopes are now showing us. The universe is not empty and gravity the only force. In fact it is filled with electricity in the form of ionized gas plasmas. Since this is the geek page I am assuming this is appropriate here (LOL)!

    I make it clear everywhere in my writing that I am not a doctor but that the things I suggest as remedies that are all very well researched and tested. I think you need to give my audience credit that they can make their own decisions as to whose advice they want to trust and respect me when I say that I never make suggestions lightly nor without experience or research.

    I do not judge anyone for using anti depressants but I know in numerous cases - including myself - I have seen that the risks are very much understated by most practitioners and that you are much safer to try sunshine, diet, exercise and emotional intelligence training first.

    If you have a good doctor you trust that is great. But if the one you consult is not abreast of the risks involved with any medication they prescribe or they become defensive if you ask - I would strongly suggest you find a doctor who has no problem discussing the risks with you. Because anyone who downplays the real risk associated with pharmaceuticals is either uninformed, misinformed or simply lying.

    The remedies I suggest may not end up helping but at least they follow the creed that practitioners should first ensure that they are doing no harm. They are also certainly not exclusive either and do not stop people trying other treatment options as well.

    A psychiatrist in New York ran trials using fish oil with his patients who failed to respond to any other medication. To his surprise a majority of them got better. The link between prostaglandin production / depression and essential fats has in fact been established clearly in numerous research studies and many practitioners prescribe essential fats with good results. If you have descendants from the UK you may also find it a powerful remedy for alcoholism (Research from the Health Recovery Center validates this). Until the drug companies find a way to patent the active elements in these foods (which of course I hope they don't) it will be unlikely that we will see this research quoted in mainstream scientific journals. That does not make the research any less real or valuable.

    I respect the years of training you have done MD and I hope that our information helps you in your practice. We have many psychologists around the world now using our program with good results. I hope you can respect my many years of research too and that this difference in our point of view doesn't deter you from recommending our site.

    Warm Regards,

    Kim Cooper

  35. Hi Kim,

    Thanks for your response. I looked into those studies, theories and research you mentioned (very interesting stuff!!) and I think all the people who've been involved in developing those theories have PhD's and other degrees relevant to the field. So their theories may not be mainstream and may take years to become accepted but they are very well informed and based on a very deep understanding about the topic, something you can only really get from years of degree level study and experience. I know just reading about them online gave me a very very basic understanding of them, because I haven't studied the principles and underpinning ideas behind those topics myself.

    My concern is about theories that are put forward by less well informed people.

    For example, there is lots of evidence to show that people with psychotic depression and bipolar don't respond well to exercise and diet, and if you understand how neurotransmitters in the brain work it's not suprising.

    I have had great experience with GPs and psychologists, you don't need to be concerned about my faith in medications (that I believe are necessary for some people), it's not blind faith (because I've studied neuropsychopharmacology), and I had no trouble myself getting off the meds when I felt ready (with support from my psych) and the side effects were clearly explained.

    It seems that maybe you haven't had wonderful experiences yourself with medical/psychological professionals and I'm really sorry to hear that. But I would ask that you post this to let people know that the medical and psychological profession are not all bad and are not uninformed drug pushers.

    I didn't know that you'd taken down the Muriel post but I'm very glad to hear it.

    Perhaps (I'm not sure html is allowed otherwise I'd provide the name of the site) you could put this (if not my whole comment): there's a good site about depression you can find by googling the black dog institute. Well informed and balanced, cutting edge research (they include alternative therapies too) and clear, user friendly information from researchers and practitioners in the field. Just so people know the range of options available to them.

    Thanks for this. I would really appreciate it if you could post this, it would help me feel better about recommending your site.

    Again, all the stuff about NPD is wonderful - very well thought out, based on solid principles, you make it very clear that you're not encouraging anyone to stay with their N partner, just giving advice if they choose to. I'd would just be great to see your advice on other topics being as balanced and unbiased.

    Thanks again

  36. Had to laugh when I read this LOL you have brought out a lot of truth :)

    2 Thumbs up : ) Thanks : )

    PS I am female :D

  37. N's are attracted to Geeks because N's are attracted first to people who are weak (insecure like them,and inexperienced re: easily manipulated).Other more normal chemistries might come into play as well of course. Geeks are attracted to N's because they appear wise (which is what geeks are seeking)and they appear strong which is what geeks are not.Geeks being without self confidence or self "knowledge" are looking for someone or something to "worship"-even though for the geek this may be an innocent desire.Or it can be something more malevolent i.e the geek wants to be more powerful or even be an N themselves.Geeks are insecure and naive,and N's are dissociative and manipulative.A geek may feel empowered by an N and may feel in love but it is not real love. It's the inverse or opposite of love-need(bullies need victims-and saviors as well).Only someone with love and imagination can save the N because he/she doesn't really want to be saved,as that would be too hard for the N.They only want to be needed which means they can never let you go to be free i.e. even though they need you they can never love you-their love would never allow them to do such a thing (if they let you go that would mean you didn't love them).So they will do anything including destroy you any way they can just to keep you needing them (in their mind).And when they feel you don't need them they will ignore you(manipulate) so that you do need them and if that doesn't work they will forget about you and discard you (if you REALLY escape,otherwise they will just keep seducing and then ignoring you).And of course they will accuse you of ignoring (manipulating) them and they will actually believe this because they are completely dissociated from their own feelings and responsibility in their minds.So therefore you must be to blame not only for anything that goes wrong but even for how they feel (including the very guilt that they caused in you,that they themselves posess).You must always be their mirror because they cannot stand to look at themselves-not NECESSARILLY because they did anything wrong(some narcissists are nice people OTHER THAN their narcissism)but because they think buried deep down beneath their insecurity,arrogance,and denial that they did something wrong.It's sort of like this-if you are a paranoid scizophrenic and you THINK you murdered someone you might do some horrible things to avoid being caught,even killing other people.Not being able to see reality and thinking other people are after you is a recipe for disaster.

  38. This is all very interesting. I have food allergies as Kim mentioned, and was like that growing up as well, very shy etc. I had immense healing in my twenties, partly as a result of being hospitalized for "depression" by my NPD husband, and also eventually discovering I could walk out myself, and eventually also finding I have adrenal/thyroid/pituitary fatigue as a result of the food allergies.

    The odd thing I find interesting in your article Kim is that my husband has similar issues: he has either Temporal Lobe Epilepsy or a cerebellar ataxia, early years of it, and has a lot of cluster personality issues as a result. I get increasingly angry at the hypo-sexuality, unwillingness to engage sexually with me, aggressive behavior, sleep attacks, anger, and lack of motivation, but all are mirrored in his brain SPECT scan which shows increased blood flow in the frontal lobe, decreased blood flow in the temporal lobe, and a hot spot in the temporal lobe where there is almost no blood flow at all.

    I wonder at the end of the day which is first, the sin of NPD or the brain issues that underlie? Will we ever know? And to think I may be playing into it as a personality issue myself. Thank you for thinking it all through Kim. MB

  39. Thank you so much!!! This sums up my relationship, she would be seen generally as the attractive pretty woman, though can be cruel and bullying, I am the geek, what you say is true about being equally socially disconnected, we both superficially seem social yet both are rather solitary

  40. A major difficulty with pretending to be “normal” is that the benchmark for “normal” varies from person to person. You are not so much aiming for a moving target as aiming for a medley of targets. (-: Police in Australia (at least) tend to refer to witnesses as “witlesses” since if you ask 3 people about their experiences of the same situation you will often get 3 totally different responses :-)

    A problem I face is an Aspergers son in the hands of a highly Narcissistic ex-wife on the other side of the country. This appears to be the worst possible situation for Master Thirteen.

    My family lineage includes extremely strong Spatio-Temporal learning ability, which in simply overwhelming others with sheer weight of information can give the appearance of Aspergers without any neurological linkage.

    For context, my father is an Engineer, his twin is a Geologist, they have four other brothers who are Engineers & two who are Scientists & one who has no Engineering qualifications however started an agricultural engineering firm a few decades ago which sells gear world-wide. Too much information too fast is typical of myself, both sisters, all 3 children, all 5 nieces & nephews, Dad's twin's 3 daughters & their children...

    I have a friend who is near-leader in a state-wide organisation (Western Australia, 4x the size of Texas) which deals with people on the ASD, whose comment last year was that they categorise clients three ways: Autism, Aspergers, looks-like-but-is-not, & I fall into the 3rd category so I would be unsurprised if #1 Son was significantly different.

    If y’all happen to be aware of any information dealing with this unwelcome combination of personalities, making me aware of it would be regarded as an act of kindness.

  41. This is so true for me. I was always called a "brain" in school, very quiet and reserved. I am still reserved, but not so quiet :). I married the "cool" guy and boy, has it been a ride...little did I know he had full blown NPD.

    Fast forward many years, he recognizes his NPD, but it is still a challenge. I have grown so much with the tools in your ebooks though!

    Oddly enough my oldest daughter is a lot like me and now as a teen is attracted to boys who are more like her (other "brains" and quiet types). I actually hope she marries someone like this as she'll likely have a more peaceful life.

    Fwiw--Kim, after watching your videos I do not see AS traits in you at all and I have worked with kids who have diagnosed AS in schools. Being a "geek" and AS are not exclusive or every engineer I know would be considered an Aspie!


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